Israel declares war on Hamas

[Zary's-Mustache]

Israel giving evacuation orders to residents in English and then bombing it less than 30 minutes later....pure evil.

[Skootenbeeten]

What a suprise, even warning before hitting military sites isn't enough. Putins puppets are hilarious.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

Completely controlling all aspects of life including the flow of goods like food, internet, electricity, and the ability of humans to move freely isn’t “unilateral withdrawal”.

Don’t make it sound like Palestinians have been allowed to live in freedoms since 2006. They have not, and any attempt at making it appear so completely enables Israel to continue to oppress the people.

The "blockade" is a great talking point, and one that I'll happily address. I apologize for taking so long, because it couldn't have been a simple 10 word response.

First, let's talk about the easy points. The people of the Gaza Strip could move freely in the Gaza Strip, but not through Israel. Why? Because Gaza is treated like a neighbouring country. One that is hostile, the reason for which I will explain in a second. The same way, Ukrainians can't move freely into Russia, or the other way around. You have border check points when you travel between countries, and that's to be expected. The same way, Israeli citizens can't move freely into Gaza, and there are signs when entering the West Bank saying No Jews from this point.

Now, I'm not sure how versed you are with Geography, but Tel Aviv is closer to Gaza than Olds is to Calgary. The closer cities like Sderot are as close to Gaza as Chochrane or Airdrie is to Calgary. It would be suicidal for Israel to have no control over the passage of potentially harmful goods and individuals to and from Israel.

Next is food, as we mentioned a border crossing. I'm sure that the US checks goods travelling across the border as well. Food and essential goods weren't restricted into Gaza in 2006. What was restricted? Anything that was shown to be used in the armament of the new Gazan government - Hamas. Hamas was committed to the destruction of Israel, and already has committed numerous terrorist attacks against Israelis.

Now as far as electricity, Gaza believe it or not has its own power station. It lacks diesel fuel because again that fuel is re-appropriated more often than not for the "resistance" or simply to fuel Hamas vehicles and underground generators.

As far as water, there were projects that were meant for Gaza to be self-reliant in that regard. However, the pipes were too good of a source for material for rockets that can be sent to Israel.

Palestinians should've actually attempted to live peacefully alongside Israel, instead of investing every resource they had so they could have another conflict with Israel. That includes building the underground tunnels, rockets, and having a stipend for any Palestinians that kill or wound Israelis. 2006 was a trial run, to see if they would strive for peace, or war.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

“Your terrorist buddies”. 9000 posts into this and still resort to childish tactics. Embarrassing.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If you don't have a reasonable argument, just make one up!

Yes, that's the problem.

Meanwhile, this gets completely glossed over:

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

You should also start by not letting your terrorist family members kill more innocent people.

The Israeli population needs to take control of their terrorists and make sure they stop slaughtering innocents.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Where did I say "every civilian casualty"?

I said the disgusting IDF is deliberately targeting and murdering innocent civilians including children and elderly women. Not to mention raping detainees.

You strongly question back that possibly the shot civilian tripped and state that the Palestinian detainee raped himself.

You're just throwing accusations to see what sticks. You can't prove any of it, but we all just have to agree with your insane statements.

Israel isn't deliberately targeting and murdering innocent civilians. Feel free to read my previous posts where I explained the difference between the IDF and Hamas.

As far as the rape allegations. From 1 prisoner, the medical examiner, was that the wounds were self-inflicted. That won't stop you from painting all the Israelis as rapists, though, which is quite the leap.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I would address both these clearly idiotic positions, to ask Palestinians to aid Israel is to ask them to sign their own death sentence, and bearing in mind Israel has made all Palestinians life a bloody misery over the last 70 or so years (even if this was at times unavoidable) this an inane position to take.

That's quite the revisionist history. Sign their own death sentence? really? The Arabs that joined Israel after the 48 independence war became Israeli citizens, and enjoyed the same rights and freedoms as any Jew. The Arabs that then became the Palestinians were encouraged to remain as refugees by the Arab League, as a pressure point against Israel.

Israel's response has been to what are, while at times annoying (the crappy half arsed rockets from Gaza) to appalling (Oct 7th), but are in no way existential threats.

So if a rocket falls on my house, and kills me it doesn't end my existance? Sure Israel would survive, but that's not very re-assuring as a citizen. I'm sure you're much braver than I'm so you would be just fine putting yourself and your family at the risk of indiscriminate rockets, do nothing and ask for a measured response. Why is it okay for Palestinian people to keep repeating "It's us or them!", but still not be considered an existential threat? Had the Hezbollah and Iran attacked on the 7th, it very well could've ended Israel.

At no time since 1970 has Israel's existence been threatened, but their response has managed to create Hamas and Hezbollah not provide itself with safety, Israel has done itself more harm than good in the last 40 years or so striking out

If Israel had not invaded Lebanon in 1982 there would be no Hezbollah, Israel's northern border would be with a relatively peaceful prosperous multi cultural Lebanon that Jews would be able to visit and holiday in, instead Israel destabilized the country and created out of nothing it's biggest threat, a Shia group that have nothing in common with Palestinians and should dislike to almost hate them and be a natural alley with Israel, instead Israel has just created enemies

Wow, why did Israel invade Lebanon in 1982? Maybe it had something to do with the Palestinian attacks from Lebanon, by the PLO, during the Lebanese civil war.

From the ceasefire, established in July 1981, until the start of the war, the Israeli government reported 270 militant attacks by the PLO in Israel, the occupied territories, and the Jordanian and Lebanese border (in addition to 20 attacks on Israeli interests abroad).

Again, I guess Israel should've done nothing, and just let the attacks intensify.

Lebanon was in a civil war from 1975. It was between the Lebanese Chrisitan militias and the PLO. That's what destabalized the country, not Israel.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Hassan nasrallah is reported to be dead.

[Skootenbeeten]

Syrians celebrating the death of Nasrallah while many westerners try to spin it as a "war crime" from the safety of their basements. xD

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Israel giving evacuation orders to residents in English and then bombing it less than 30 minutes later....pure evil.

That's more than fair. How much time should Israel give? Enough for Hezbollah to move their naval rockets? 30mins are enough of a warning for residents of a building to evacuate. That's actually 30 mins more than anyone gives Israel before firing at it.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

The "blockade" is a great talking point, and one that I'll happily address. I apologize for taking so long, because it couldn't have been a simple 10 word response.

First, let's talk about the easy points. The people of the Gaza Strip could move freely in the Gaza Strip, but not through Israel. Why? Because Gaza is treated like a neighbouring country. One that is hostile, the reason for which I will explain in a second. The same way, Ukrainians can't move freely into Russia, or the other way around. You have border check points when you travel between countries, and that's to be expected. The same way, Israeli citizens can't move freely into Gaza, and there are signs when entering the West Bank saying No Jews from this point.

Now, I'm not sure how versed you are with Geography, but Tel Aviv is closer to Gaza than Olds is to Calgary. The closer cities like Sderot are as close to Gaza as Chochrane or Airdrie is to Calgary. It would be suicidal for Israel to have no control over the passage of potentially harmful goods and individuals to and from Israel.

Next is food, as we mentioned a border crossing. I'm sure that the US checks goods travelling across the border as well. Food and essential goods weren't restricted into Gaza in 2006. What was restricted? Anything that was shown to be used in the armament of the new Gazan government - Hamas. Hamas was committed to the destruction of Israel, and already has committed numerous terrorist attacks against Israelis.

Now as far as electricity, Gaza believe it or not has its own power station. It lacks diesel fuel because again that fuel is re-appropriated more often than not for the "resistance" or simply to fuel Hamas vehicles and underground generators.

As far as water, there were projects that were meant for Gaza to be self-reliant in that regard. However, the pipes were too good of a source for material for rockets that can be sent to Israel.

Palestinians should've actually attempted to live peacefully alongside Israel, instead of investing every resource they had so they could have another conflict with Israel. That includes building the underground tunnels, rockets, and having a stipend for any Palestinians that kill or wound Israelis. 2006 was a trial run, to see if they would strive for peace, or war.

Do you realize what you have just described is a prison?

Do you realize that how big Gaza is? It’s half the size of Calgary. And you put millioms of people there and control all aspects of daily life for the security of Israelis.

So you are taking a group of people and putting them into a dense area. And controlling their access to resources. And you’re saying that if Palestinians behaved peacefully, they’d be allowed to get more freedom after a “trial run”.

And you don’t think that LITERALLY DESCRIBES PRISON?

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

That's more than fair. How much time should Israel give? Enough for Hezbollah to move their naval rockets? 30mins are enough of a warning for residents of a building to evacuate. That's actually 30 mins more than anyone gives Israel before firing at it.

The comedy just keeps getting better. Iran said they gave 72 hour warnings before they sent drones into Israel last time. Does that also make them one of the most “moral” militaries?

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/isr...HUFYyR3OwYVBCL

The mental gymnastics to make the IDF look good is insane.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

Do you realize what you have just described is a prison?

Do you realize that how big Gaza is? It’s half the size of Calgary. And you put millioms of people there and control all aspects of daily life for the security of Israelis.

So you are taking a group of people and putting them into a dense area. And controlling their access to resources. And you’re saying that if Palestinians behaved peacefully, they’d be allowed to get more freedom after a “trial run”.

And you don’t think that LITERALLY DESCRIBES PRISON?

It doesn't describe a prison, or any country can be described as a prison. Gaza has borders with Egypt as well. People can move in and out. Do you want me to post a couple of videos showing you the beautiful beaches in this so called prison, the markes full of groceries, or the hotels?

Borders between countries have customs! Hostile countries don't get to move weapons shipments through their borders.

Would you treat Kaliningrad as a prison if Poland, and Lithuania won't let Russians in?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

The comedy just keeps getting better. Iran said they gave 72 hour warnings before they sent drones into Israel last time. Does that also make them one of the most “moral” militaries?

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/isr...HUFYyR3OwYVBCL

The mental gymnastics to make the IDF look good is insane.

Again, you're being purposefully obtuse. Iran didn't give Israel the target of their strike, but that they'll wait for it strike israel. How many of the thousands of rockets fired into Israel last year gave Israel warnings? Such as we'll be targeting the following military equipment please evacuate this neighborhood because it's near it. None, because civilians are the target.

There's a concrete reason Israel had evacuated 80,000 people from the northern border.

Israel also had to evacuate parts of the south when the war with Hamas broke.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

It doesn't describe a prison, or any country can be described as a prison. Gaza has borders with Egypt as well. People can move in and out. Do you want me to post a couple of videos showing you the beautiful beaches in this so called prison, the markes full of groceries, or the hotels?

Borders between countries have customs! Hostile countries don't get to move weapons shipments through their borders.

Would you treat Kaliningrad as a prison if Poland, and Lithuania won't let Russians in?

Yes I would…if Poland and Lithuania also controlled everything that flowed into and out of Kaliningrad, and were occupying it.

First Nations reservations are a better analogy. And even they get way more freedom than Israel is giving to the Palestinians.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

That's quite the revisionist history. Sign their own death sentence? really? The Arabs that joined Israel after the 48 independence war became Israeli citizens, and enjoyed the same rights and freedoms as any Jew. The Arabs that then became the Palestinians were encouraged to remain as refugees by the Arab League, as a pressure point against Israel.

So if a rocket falls on my house, and kills me it doesn't end my existance? Sure Israel would survive, but that's not very re-assuring as a citizen. I'm sure you're much braver than I'm so you would be just fine putting yourself and your family at the risk of indiscriminate rockets, do nothing and ask for a measured response. Why is it okay for Palestinian people to keep repeating "It's us or them!", but still not be considered an existential threat? Had the Hezbollah and Iran attacked on the 7th, it very well could've ended Israel.

Wow, why did Israel invade Lebanon in 1982? Maybe it had something to do with the Palestinian attacks from Lebanon, by the PLO, during the Lebanese civil war.

Again, I guess Israel should've done nothing, and just let the attacks intensify.

Lebanon was in a civil war from 1975. It was between the Lebanese Chrisitan militias and the PLO. That's what destabalized the country, not Israel.

Interestingly that wiki page has been edited. From my post on sept 18th:

Israel launched its military operation against the PLO in Lebanon using the attempted assassination of an Israeli diplomat in the United Kingdom as pretext, despite the perpetrators belonging to the Abu Nidal Organization, which was an enemy of the PLO.[14][15][16][17][i] Israel's objectives were to expel the PLO, remove Syrian influence over Lebanon, and install a pro-Israeli Christian government led by President Bachir Gemayel.

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...postcount=8976


and now:

The 1982 Lebanon War, also called the Second Israeli invasion of Lebanon,[20][21][22] began on 6 June 1982, when Israel invaded southern Lebanon during the Lebanese Civil War. The Israelis sought to end Palestinian attacks from Lebanon, destroy the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in the country, and install a pro-Israel Maronite Christian government.[23][24][25] The Israeli military operation, codenamed Operation Peace for Galilee, was launched after gunmen from the Abu Nidal Organization attempted to assassinate Shlomo Argov, Israel's ambassador to the United Kingdom. Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin blamed the PLO,[26][27] using the incident as a casus belli for invasion,[28][29][i] which was the second by Israel following its 1978 invasion of Lebanon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Lebanon_War

Somebody been fiddling with history...The original does not agree with your summation at all.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Again, you're being purposefully obtuse. Iran didn't give Israel the target of their strike, but that they'll wait for it strike israel. How many of the thousands of rockets fired into Israel last year gave Israel warnings? Such as we'll be targeting the following military equipment please evacuate this neighborhood because it's near it. None, because civilians are the target.

There's a concrete reason Israel had evacuated 80,000 people from the northern border.

Israel also had to evacuate parts of the south when the war with Hamas broke.

Oh so Israel evacuating 80,000 people (implying that’s a big number) is because they weren’t given specific targets. But Palestine having to evacuate hundred of thousands at one time is ok because they say “get out of the north, we’re going to carpet bomb this into the dark ages”

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

Yes I would…if Poland and Lithuania also controlled everything that flowed into and out of Kaliningrad, and were occupying it.

First Nations reservations are a better analogy. And even they get way more freedom than Israel is giving to the Palestinians.

As you can tell by the sheer amount of weapons and munitions in Gaza, as well as the Gaza metro. Israel wasn't able to control nearly as much as you're trying to imply.

Also I don't see the first Nations being actively hostile to Canada. If they start systematically murdering Canadians they would be dealt with to the full extent of the law.

Gaza still isn't a prison, no matter how much you try to pretend it is, in order to excuse Palestinians from being accountable for their actions.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

You're just throwing accusations to see what sticks. You can't prove any of it, but we all just have to agree with your insane statements.

Israel isn't deliberately targeting and murdering innocent civilians. Feel free to read my previous posts where I explained the difference between the IDF and Hamas

You're either so brainwashed that you can't can't believe the truth or so evil you'll deny the murders happened.

You suggesting the multiple foreign doctors are lying? That all the people that were slaughtered whilst trying to get flour tripped and fell onto bullets like that old lady. You're so far gone you're beyond the IDF who don't even deny that one.

Both deliberately and indiscriminately kill civilians.
Both weaponize rape.
Both terrorize civilians
Leaders of both have been accused of war crimes.
Both of these are terrorists.

Differences. You only support one terrorist group.

Originally Posted by gvitaly

As far as the rape allegations. From 1 prisoner, the medical examiner, was that the wounds were self-inflicted. That won't stop you from painting all the Israelis as rapists, though, which is quite the leap.

Go on. This should be good. Source please.

Multiple cases of rape and sexual abuse.

[Fuzz]

So if Iran is the source of Israel's frustrations, why doesn't Israel attack the Iranian regime? Aren't they more guilty than the 5 year old missing a limb?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

Oh so Israel evacuating 80,000 people (implying that’s a big number) is because they weren’t given specific targets. But Palestine having to evacuate hundred of thousands at one time is ok because they say “get out of the north, we’re going to carpet bomb this into the dark ages”

I see you ignore the percise warnings point, and deflect to the next point. I guess that's what you have to do when you don't have a leg to stand on.

As far as the Palestinians having to evacuate hundreds of thousands, yes that's because they elected the Hamas. They let Hamas and other terrorist organizations entrench themselves in the population, and they continue to be the aggressors.

Would they need to be evacuated if 250 Israeli hostages weren't hidden among them? Would they need to evacuate if their homes didn't have Hamas munitions inside them? Maybe no one would need to move if no one would launch rockets from next to civilian homes.

Palestinians get to say "it's us or them". It's fine for them to call for death to Israel and death to all Jews, but when Israel strikes back it's always hitting only innocents that had nothing to do with anything.