Israel declares war on Hamas

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by Language

Based on all past wars, The UN, EU and other sources estimate that civilians usually account for 80 percent to 90 percent of casualties, or a 1:9 ratio, in modern war. And here we have Israel, at roughly a 1:1 ratio, in arguably the toughest urban warfare conditions that any country has ever seen, due to the extensive tunnel networks and booby traps that Hamas has built, essentially making Gaza one giant terror maze.

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This is so hilariously stupid and easily proved wrong. You barely have to go back to find “modern wars” with lower civilian to combatant ratios.

The war in Afghanistan had a 1:2.5 ratio and the war in Iraq is a 1:2 ratio.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio

Do you only get your information from Pro-IDF propaganda subreddits and refuse to even fact check anything? Or do you just enjoy spouting the same BS?

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Language

Now I see Zary is even saying this isn’t a war altogether! That just takes the cake as far as mental gymnastics goes. Absolutely ridiculous.


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So if this is a war then do you find what happened on Oct 7th just war? You keep mentioning ratio and the ratio on Oct 7th was about 400 of the 1150 or so being security forces. That would put the ratio at about 1:2.5.

You're ok with oct 7th? That's pretty sick of you don't you think? You agree with civilian violence as long as the ratio fits what you think is acceptable. You've already told us you think civilian deaths are ok in war. Or does Israel only get to dictate what war is? Is war dropping 2000 pound dumb bombs? Is everything Hamas does just war or terrorism? I'm confused now. Please clarify.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

This is so hilariously stupid and easily proved wrong. You barely have to go back to find “modern wars” with lower civilian to combatant ratios.

The war in Afghanistan had a 1:2.5 ratio and the war in Iraq is a 1:2 ratio.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio

Do you only get your information from Pro-IDF propaganda subreddits and refuse to even fact check anything? Or do you just enjoy spouting the same BS?

The math is back!

Love me some ratios to help soothe those killing pains.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bagor

They are both vile, evil murderers of innocents and rapists.
The difference is the actions of both make me a sick whilst you will go above and beyond to defend one.


Classic proving Gideon Levy correct. "The only war where the aggressors are the victims." Poor sick soldiers being forced to murder children and elderly .
They don't want to murder people as they scramble for food. They don't want to lure paramedics in so they can execute them.

Poor poor soldiers. Won't someone spare a thought for those poor sadistic psychotic sickos.?


LOL! There's a reason why they refuse to allow the world's media into the area. They're a bunch of psychotic sickos with their weird videos as they laugh as they destroy residences, schools, universities, places of worship.
We're only seeing/hearing a fraction of what's going on. Asides from waving a white flag one of the most dangerous ativi in Gaza is to wear a press vest.

Noteworthy that you call the raped detainee/prisoner a terrorist whilst the mainstream media refrains from doing so? Almost as if you want to justify rape.

Yeah. Debating in Parliament for the right to rape. Think about the absurdity of that. Protests to free the rapists. Slots for the rapists on Israeli TV. Senior politicians showing the support for the rapists. What heros.

Don't talk about code of conduct when it's clear anything goes. No one will be shocked if they're promoted.

I'll save your response to the murder of an innocent elder woman for a separate post given the sickness of it.

As always you have no argument, so you try to achieve a moral superiority by attempting to attack my character. I have started multiple times that no one wants innocents to get hurt. I also fully support soldiers that are guilty of crimes against civilians to be dealt with to the full extent of the law. Either the judicial system or the military police deals with them.

Now as for the aggressors. The aggressors were the Palestinians. They invaded Israeli land, they launched rockets, and they kidnapped hostages. Prisoners of war are not hostages, so spare me from the comparisons, they are detained combatants.


They don't murder people that scramble for food, but that's a nice touch trying to spin the narrative. Gazans aren't starving, if they're scrambling for food it's because your terrorist buddies are stealing it all. Otherwise, there's plenty of food entering Gaza. Also, suggesting that Israeli soldiers are simply going through target practice at civilians is beyond ridiculous. You know that. You're just trying to deflect, as always.

They're smiling when they destroy tunnels, or infrastructure terrorists used to open fire at Israelis. I would be smiling too, if I'm depriving my enemy of a stronghold.

The detained prisoner is a part of the Nukbha forces(special forces) of a terrorist organization, so yes he is a terrorist. He was referred to as a terrorist in the news articles I read as well. BTW the findings found that the rectal damage was self inflicted.

No one is trying to give anyone the right to rape, it's you trying to muddy the water. For Hamas rape was a fair game, so I can see why you need to attempt and draw the parallel with Israel. Otherwise, people would see them for what they are.

It's not anything goes. Israel could've just as easily killed every single person in Gaza. They choose to risk their soldiers, so they can target terrorists. They choose to warn Gazans of where they're going to conduct operations, and designate safe zones. In the meantime the terrorist organizations choose to embed themselves in the population because they get more support for each civilian killed.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Tl:dr for everyone else.

Gazans aren't starving.

Prisoners had self inflicted rectal damage.

Israel can kill every single Gazan if they choose but are so moral they don't.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Tl:dr for everyone else.

Gazans aren't starving.

Prisoners had self inflicted rectal damage.

Israel can kill every single Gazan if they choose but are so moral they don't.

The flour massacre didn't happen.

The right to rape was never debated in Israeli Parliament.

There were no protests for the right to rape.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Tl:dr for everyone else.

Gazans aren't starving.

Prisoners had self inflicted rectal damage.

Israel can kill every single Gazan if they choose but are so moral they don't.

You keep trying to take things out of context. The bottom line is that Israel is doing a lot to avoid civilian casualties, but nothing but perfection would be good enough for the likes of you.

You never told me if you see the Canadian armed forces as a terrorist organization because there were 46k civilian casualties in the Afghan war.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

You never told me if you see the Canadian armed forces as a terrorist organization because there were 46k civilian casualties in the Afghan war.

What are you implying here?
That the Canadian forces deliberately murdered civilians.?

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

You never told me if you see the Canadian armed forces as a terrorist organization because there were 46k civilian casualties in the Afghan war.

When did you ask this?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bagor

What are you implying here?
That the Canadian forces deliberately murdered civilians.?

Answer the question. Since I answered all of yours.

I'm drawing a parallel between the Canadian armed forces and the IDF, and you know it. Because neither of them deliberately targets civilians, but there are plenty of civilian casualties in a conflict with terrorists that are embedded in a population.

If you don't consider the Canadian armed forces as terrorists, and can distinguish between them and an organization like Hamas, then you can apply the exact same reasoning when distinguish IDF and Hamas.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Answer the question. Since I answered all of yours.

I'm drawing a parallel between the Canadian armed forces and the IDF, and you know it. Because neither of them deliberately targets civilians,

No. The Canadian armed forces are not terrorists because they do not deliberately target civilians.

Yes. The IDF are lowlife, sick, psychotic, evil, rapist terrorists that deliberately target civilians including women and children.

The two aren't even close. Unless you're some sicko trying to defend the deliberate murder of civilians.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bagor

No. The Canadian armed forces are not terrorists because they do not deliberately target civilians.

Yes. The IDF are lowlife, sick, psychotic, evil, rapist terrorists that deliberately target civilians including women and children.

The two aren't even close. Unless you're some sicko trying to defend the deliberate murder of civilians.

Here you go on a rant again about the IDF. How many IDF or ex-IDF have you met in life to draw that conclusion?

So you agree that 46k innocent Afghans died during the Afghan war despite not being targeted. Yet, every civilian casualty in Gaza is treated as deliberate targeting by the IDF. I'm surprised you don't see the hypocrisy.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

You keep trying to take things out of context. The bottom line is that Israel is doing a lot to avoid civilian casualties, but nothing but perfection would be good enough for the likes of you.

You never told me if you see the Canadian armed forces as a terrorist organization because there were 46k civilian casualties in the Afghan war.

I agree that context is an important consideration. While Civilian Casualties are important to monitor, by no means are Canadians hands clean with respect to military operations in Afghanistan. most people would consider that entire affair an on going cluster ####, the wide spread famine in Afghanistan is a global humanitarian crisis.

With that in mind Canada and the other nations involved were not focused on displacement. Afghans still live in Afghanistan and have the right to self govern, as ####ed as it may be.


In Palestine today, 90% of the population is displaced from their homes, 70% of those homes are unlivable rubble. What could give the international community confidence that those people will be allowed back to their home lands?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I agree that context is an important consideration. While Civilian Casualties are important to monitor, by no means are Canadians hands clean with respect to military operations in Afghanistan. most people would consider that entire affair an on going cluster ####, the wide spread famine in Afghanistan is a global humanitarian crisis.

With that in mind Canada and the other nations involved were not focused on displacement. Afghans still live in Afghanistan and have the right to self govern, as ####ed as it may be.


In Palestine today, 90% of the population is displaced from their homes, 70% of those homes are unlivable rubble. What could give the international community confidence that those people will be allowed back to their home lands?

First of all fair points.

I wasn't trying to say that all Canadian hands are clean, the same way I don't think that all Israeli hands are clean. That's the exception and not the rule as some here are trying to pletend. I think that the Canadian armed forces, and the Israeli armed forces shouldn't be compared to a terrorist organizations, because there are rules, and the forces as a whole are held accountable to them.

As far as the Afghans' rights to self govern. That worked out great. The population doesn't get a say about who's in charge. The women were stripped of all rights, and now you can marry was it 9 year olds? Yep, nothing for the international community to be concerned of there, because Afghans are ruling Afghans.

What should give the international community that the Palestinian people will be allowed to return to their homes is the fact that Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza before in 2006. Also, all the previous peace offers from Israel always included the entirety of the Gaza strip. The conflict was always regarding Jerusalem.

On the other hand what assurance would Israel have that the remaining live hostages would be released? What assurances does Israel have that Hamas wouldn't re-arm. We all saw the assurances of resolution 1701 to Israel in regards to Lebanon from the international community. Were they upheld? No. Everyone only remembered that southern Lebanon was supposed to be de-militarized after Israel took action. 11 months of rockets didn't concern the international community for some reason.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I have started multiple times that no one wants innocents to get hurt….

Now as for the aggressors. The aggressors were the Palestinians. They invaded Israeli land, they launched rockets, and they kidnapped hostages. Prisoners of war are not hostages, so spare me from the comparisons, they are detained combatants.


They don't murder people that scramble for food, but that's a nice touch trying to spin the narrative. Gazans aren't starving, if they're scrambling for food it's because your terrorist buddies are stealing it all. Otherwise, there's plenty of food entering Gaza. Also, suggesting that Israeli soldiers are simply going through target practice at civilians is beyond ridiculous. You know that. You're just trying to deflect, as always.

They're smiling when they destroy tunnels, or infrastructure terrorists used to open fire at Israelis. I would be smiling too, if I'm depriving my enemy of a stronghold.

The detained prisoner is a part of the Nukbha forces(special forces) of a terrorist organization, so yes he is a terrorist. He was referred to as a terrorist in the news articles I read as well. BTW the findings found that the rectal damage was self inflicted.

No one is trying to give anyone the right to rape, it's you trying to muddy the water. For Hamas rape was a fair game, so I can see why you need to attempt and draw the parallel with Israel. Otherwise, people would see them for what they are.

It's not anything goes. Israel could've just as easily killed every single person in Gaza. They choose to risk their soldiers, so they can target terrorists. They choose to warn Gazans of where they're going to conduct operations, and designate safe zones. In the meantime the terrorist organizations choose to embed themselves in the population because they get more support for each civilian killed.

“Nobody wants innocents to get hurt” says the guy who has specifically called for innocents to get hurt and follows that sentence by trying to undermine of the innocence of every victim of Israel.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

As always you have no argument, so you try to achieve a moral superiority by attempting to attack my character. I have started multiple times that no one wants innocents to get hurt. I also fully support soldiers that are guilty of crimes against civilians to be dealt with to the full extent of the law. Either the judicial system or the military police deals with them.

Now as for the aggressors. The aggressors were the Palestinians. They invaded Israeli land, they launched rockets, and they kidnapped hostages. Prisoners of war are not hostages, so spare me from the comparisons, they are detained combatants.


They don't murder people that scramble for food, but that's a nice touch trying to spin the narrative. Gazans aren't starving, if they're scrambling for food it's because your terrorist buddies are stealing it all. Otherwise, there's plenty of food entering Gaza. Also, suggesting that Israeli soldiers are simply going through target practice at civilians is beyond ridiculous. You know that. You're just trying to deflect, as always.

They're smiling when they destroy tunnels, or infrastructure terrorists used to open fire at Israelis. I would be smiling too, if I'm depriving my enemy of a stronghold.

The detained prisoner is a part of the Nukbha forces(special forces) of a terrorist organization, so yes he is a terrorist. He was referred to as a terrorist in the news articles I read as well. BTW the findings found that the rectal damage was self inflicted.

No one is trying to give anyone the right to rape, it's you trying to muddy the water. For Hamas rape was a fair game, so I can see why you need to attempt and draw the parallel with Israel. Otherwise, people would see them for what they are.

It's not anything goes. Israel could've just as easily killed every single person in Gaza. They choose to risk their soldiers, so they can target terrorists. They choose to warn Gazans of where they're going to conduct operations, and designate safe zones. In the meantime the terrorist organizations choose to embed themselves in the population because they get more support for each civilian killed.

Where in the flying #### do you get your information from?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Where in the flying #### do you get your information from?

Analyzing data from the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) agency of the Defense Ministry, which includes the weight of consignments of specific food commodities and standardized food parcels delivered to Gaza, the authors found that the mean energy availability across four months was 3,163 kcal per person, per day.

This significantly exceeds the widely accepted standard of 2,100 kcals per person, per day established by the Sphere humanitarian organization, for the minimum amount of food aid required in response to a crisis.

Source

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

First of all fair points.

I wasn't trying to say that all Canadian hands are clean, the same way I don't think that all Israeli hands are clean. That's the exception and not the rule as some here are trying to pletend. I think that the Canadian armed forces, and the Israeli armed forces shouldn't be compared to a terrorist organizations, because there are rules, and the forces as a whole are held accountable to them.

As far as the Afghans' rights to self govern. That worked out great. The population doesn't get a say about who's in charge. The women were stripped of all rights, and now you can marry was it 9 year olds? Yep, nothing for the international community to be concerned of there, because Afghans are ruling Afghans.

What should give the international community that the Palestinian people will be allowed to return to their homes is the fact that Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza before in 2006. Also, all the previous peace offers from Israel always included the entirety of the Gaza strip. The conflict was always regarding Jerusalem.

On the other hand what assurance would Israel have that the remaining live hostages would be released? What assurances does Israel have that Hamas wouldn't re-arm. We all saw the assurances of resolution 1701 to Israel in regards to Lebanon from the international community. Were they upheld? No. Everyone only remembered that southern Lebanon was supposed to be de-militarized after Israel took action. 11 months of rockets didn't concern the international community for some reason.

To be clear I do not have any solutions besides saying that all peace comes from within. That platitude aside. I agree, nothing was solved in Afghanistan except to prove that a large scale terrorist attack would bring an ass kicking for the ages.

With that in mind, a two decade long offensive that tried to establish democracy failed. War cannot bring peace. It cannot instill democratic and liberal values it can only create suffering, and it can only make people who thrive in suffering more powerful.

How can anyone heal these wounds?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Source

Oh, well if a totally non-biased study shows that(still waiting for peer review ...) then it must be true. I'm sure the Norwegians would have reason to lie about it.

Data analysis by organisations working in Gaza has found that as a consequence of the Israeli government's obstruction of aid:

• 83% of required food aid does not make it into Gaza, up from 34% in 2023.This reduction means people in Gaza have gone from having an average of two meals a day to just one meal every other day. An estimated 50,000 children aged between 6-59 months urgently require treatment for malnutrition by the end of the year.

https://www.nrc.no/news/2024/septemb...-data-reveals/


Check out this well fed child(pictures at the link, if you really need help to convince yourself:

"It's distressing to see my child ... lying there dying from malnutrition because I cannot provide him with anything due to the war, the closing of crossings and the contaminated water," she said, seated on the floor next to her motionless son, who had an intravenous drip attached to his wrist.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...za-2024-07-09/


So you have one study from Israeli Defense Ministry, who'd have no reason at all the deceive, and, well about a quadrillion news articles, photos, videos...and what do you CHOOSE to believe? Ya. Good stuff. Intentional ignorance.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

What should give the international community that the Palestinian people will be allowed to return to their homes is the fact that Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza before in 2006. Also, all the previous peace offers from Israel always included the entirety of the Gaza strip. The conflict was always regarding Jerusalem.

Completely controlling all aspects of life including the flow of goods like food, internet, electricity, and the ability of humans to move freely isn’t “unilateral withdrawal”.

Don’t make it sound like Palestinians have been allowed to live in freedoms since 2006. They have not, and any attempt at making it appear so completely enables Israel to continue to oppress the people.