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Old 07-29-2016, 01:46 PM   #9001
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I don't know how anyone can take fiscal libertarians seriously to be honest.
What do you think fiscal libertarians stand for?
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:46 PM   #9002
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Idealist is a better word than idiot or simpleton.
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:48 PM   #9003
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What do you think fiscal libertarians stand for?
In a nutshell? Lower taxes, less regulations, and the belief that the free market can correct just about anything (i.e. if harming the environment is bad then you don't need environmental regulations because the market will eventually punish those who harm the environment).

EDIT: And that private business can do a better job of managing public services, at a lower cost to the end user, than the government can.
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:50 PM   #9004
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^None of those things are particularly crazy, depending on the context and the specific service or company we're talking about. As for enviro regulations, his website says he's in favour of enforcing "reasonable" regulations in line with what he did in New Mexico, for whatever that's worth.
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Idealist is a better word than idiot or simpleton.
It's closer; I'd say he's pretty much the small government version of Sanders or some version thereof. That is, some of the ideas are fine in theory but aren't workable.

For example, cutting the federal budget gradually to the point where there isn't a structural deficit? Fine. Just realize that'll take over a decade. His platform, instead, says "cut the budget 43% to bring it into balance". Doing that in a single Presidential term is batcrap insane and would probably be just as damaging as Trump's policies.

That said, in the interviews I have heard him in, he's really quick to say "that's a target, these things have to be passed through congress and will obviously be negotiated". So he does at least have some sense of reality.
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:50 PM   #9005
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The complexity of the world and our economy is an argument for libertarian-ism.

The world is far too complex for a cabal of bureaucrats to manage.

Free markets, capitalism, and small governments put the responsibility onto a large group of people to all make decisions in parallel. It is, in short, an argument for a "large bandwidth" processor, rather than a "small bandwidth" processor in the form of government.
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:52 PM   #9006
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It's closer; I'd say he's pretty much the small government version of Sanders or some version thereof. That is, some of the ideas are fine in theory but aren't workable.

For example, cutting the federal budget gradually to the point where there isn't a structural deficit? Fine. Just realize that'll take over a decade. His platform, instead, says "cut the budget 43% to bring it into balance". Doing that in a single Presidential term is batcrap insane and would probably be just as damaging as Trump's policies.

That said, in the interviews I have heard him in, he's really quick to say "that's a target, these things have to be passed through congress and will obviously be negotiated". So he does at least have some sense of reality.
The Libertarian "base", if you can call it that, was quite upset at the Johnson/Weld ticket, as they are far too mainstream and conventional in their views. They are not radicals at all.
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:52 PM   #9007
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Are they not FYGM enough for them?
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:53 PM   #9008
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That's a perfectly valid perspective. I disagree with him on certain topics to varying degrees, and I think you're right about the libertarian view of American foreign policy. But because you disagree with his world view doesn't suggest he's an "idiot". And hedging it to "simpleton" doesn't help; that means the same thing!

This bugs me because it's part of how we get to Trump to begin with; if everyone we disagree with is an unethical, corrupt, uncaring, self-promoting dunce who couldn't run a lemonade stand without bungling it, then when we get someone who actually meets that description or at least approaches it - e.g. Donald Trump - we tend to think it's just par for the course. You've seen some of that in here, from posters like Resurrection.
Meh, simpleton to me means someone who views life in very simple terms and can't handle complex ideas or realities with multiple correct viewpoints depending on the circumstances.

Even if you leave it as meaning the same as idiot, I don't think it would be terribly incorrect.
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:54 PM   #9009
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The complexity of the world and our economy is an argument for libertarian-ism.

The world is far too complex for a cabal of bureaucrats to manage.

Free markets, capitalism, and small governments put the responsibility onto a large group of people to all make decisions in parallel. It is, in short, an argument for a "large bandwidth" processor, rather than a "small bandwidth" processor in the form of government.
Show me an example where unregulated capitalism and small government hasn't resulted in greater wealth disparity and a more impoverished lower class and then maybe I'll libertarianism more seriously.
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:54 PM   #9010
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Idealist is a better word than idiot or simpleton.
All those words mean the same thing to me in the end.
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:55 PM   #9011
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^None of those things are particularly crazy, depending on the context and the specific service or company we're talking about. As for enviro regulations, his website says he's in favour of enforcing "reasonable" regulations in line with what he did in New Mexico, for whatever that's worth.

It's closer; I'd say he's pretty much the small government version of Sanders or some version thereof. That is, some of the ideas are fine in theory but aren't workable.

For example, cutting the federal budget gradually to the point where there isn't a structural deficit? Fine. Just realize that'll take over a decade. His platform, instead, says "cut the budget 43% to bring it into balance". Doing that in a single Presidential term is batcrap insane and would probably be just as damaging as Trump's policies.

That said, in the interviews I have heard him in, he's really quick to say "that's a target, these things have to be passed through congress and will obviously be negotiated". So he does at least have some sense of reality.
I'd agree with that I also classify Sanders as an Idealist. He's also a former republican who left over social issues. He needed a party though. I hope that his type of republicanism takes over after Trump takes out the party.

I think Ryan fits this mold to however is willing to play to the evangelical base to try to get elected.
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:55 PM   #9012
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The Libertarian "base", if you can call it that, was quite upset at the Johnson/Weld ticket, as they are far too mainstream and conventional in their views. They are not radicals at all.
It's the standard problem with zealots. The Libertarian base are even more extreme than the GOP's or Dems' hardcore voters, because it's a niche, cultish party rather than something mainstream.

I do think that if you ask most people a bunch of questions about how they think government should function, they're going to have a lot of libertarian views - just moderated to take into account that no idealized political theory works in the real world without compromising to some extent and diluting the puristic interpretation.
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Meh, simpleton to me means someone who views life in very simple terms and can't handle complex ideas or realities with multiple correct viewpoints depending on the circumstances.
See, you say this, and then you suggest that being an idiot and an idealist are ultimately the same thing. Who's oversimplifying complex realities? Listen to that interview and he's talking about the potential for a bond market collapse as a basis for why he thinks the current model of government spending is untenable - I'm not sure I agree but it's hardly a simplistic economic view.
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:56 PM   #9013
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Are they not FYGM enough for them?
Yeah, that's the other thing. Most of the fiscal libertarians I've encountered can have their ideology summed up in "Why should I have to pay for poor people?"
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:58 PM   #9014
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All those words mean the same thing to me in the end.
Really? I see simpleton and idiot as strongly negative terms whereas an idealist is a compliment.
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:58 PM   #9015
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See, you say this, and then you suggest that being an idiot and an idealist are ultimately the same thing. Who's oversimplifying complex realities?
No, it was meant to be a jab at idealism to lump them in with simpletons and idiots. I think it's utterly pointless to be a pure idealist.
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Old 07-29-2016, 02:02 PM   #9016
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Yeah, that's the other thing. Most of the fiscal libertarians I've encountered can have their ideology summed up in "Why should I have to pay for poor people?"
Most libertarians would say their ideology is the best way to help the poor people change their situation.
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Old 07-29-2016, 02:05 PM   #9017
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Most libertarians would say their ideology is the best way to help the poor people change their situation.
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Old 07-29-2016, 02:06 PM   #9018
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It's the standard problem with zealots. The Libertarian base are even more extreme than the GOP's or Dems' hardcore voters, because it's a niche, cultish party rather than something mainstream.

I do think that if you ask most people a bunch of questions about how they think government should function, they're going to have a lot of libertarian views - just moderated to take into account that no idealized political theory works in the real world without compromising to some extent and diluting the puristic interpretation.
Modern libertarians are basically the same as people who say "I'm fiscally conservative but socially liberal."

If the GOP had figured out a way to support liberal social policy on LGBTQ rights, abortion, ditch evangelicals, and run a platform of limited government, they would win in a walk. There is an enormous appetite for this policy direction, and neither party can figure out how to get itself there.

The true believer Libertarians, I'm certain, have absolutely no desire to compromise in order to become an effective political machine. They almost enjoy the political crash and burn.
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Old 07-29-2016, 02:07 PM   #9019
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Yeah, that's the other thing. Most of the fiscal libertarians I've encountered can have their ideology summed up in "Why should I have to pay for poor people?"
Eh, that's a less than charitable interpretation of the text I'd bet.

I'd sum it up as, "Government is currently doing lots of things that are beyond the scope of what governments should do; if it would just stick to doing the bare minimum to ensure a functioning state it would cost a lot less and we'd generally be better off. Meanwhile, everyone can pretty much do whatever they like in their private lives as long as it isn't directly hurting others."
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No, it was meant to be a jab at idealism to lump them in with simpletons and idiots. I think it's utterly pointless to be a pure idealist.
Ok, but that doesn't make them stupid. At worst, they're impractical.
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Old 07-29-2016, 02:08 PM   #9020
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The Paul family (Rand and Ron) are the only two "libertarians" I have ever heard who can halfway defend that stance, and even they are hybrids between true libertarians and conservatives.
Plus they are gentlemen. Put them on the stage and they won't embarrass the party. Articulate, intelligent and better than either of the two turds left for office by a long shot.
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