Israel declares war on Hamas

[Language]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Your argument will probably land better if you don’t make up a position to argue against when there’s a real one right there you could have just taken on honestly.

What position did I make up? Are you referring to the 8,000 rockets fired at Israel that I quoted? There are many sources that reference that number, including this article from the BBC.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67307858.amp


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GGG]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

State terrorism, Israel had no way of knowing who would be near the pagers, like Gaza the objective was to spread fear and cause killing regardless of who is being killed

I think this claim would come down to if Israel put the maximum amount of explosive in the phone they could or not. Watching the video in the fruit stand made it seem reasonable. It’s tragic that a child died because they were sitting on their father. I don’t think that satisfies the definition of terrorism on its own.

This was an attack on the military members of a country they are at war with.

I’d also argue this was designed to identify Hezbolah members and to spread fear in Hezbolah rather than in the general civilian population.

If Israel wants to spread fear in Lebanon you just follow the Gaza playbook. Bomb areas into submission tell people to go to safe zones than bomb the safe zones.

I think Israel fighting in Gaza like they do in Iran and Lebonon would represent significant progress.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I hope by tomorrow they've wised up enough to throw their string and cans in the garbage.

Hearing they are nspecting carrier pigeons with portable xray machines.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Language

What position did I make up? Are you referring to the 8,000 rockets fired at Israel that I quoted? There are many sources that reference that number, including this article from the BBC.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67307858.amp


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You made up that WCW believed Israel should just ask politely, which isn’t what he said, and you did it to make his position seem less credible in order to make yours seem more credible in comparison. If your position is more credible, you should be able to put it up against what he actually said and test that out.

[FlameOn]

Reading on how Israel infiltrated created a bunch of shell companies, manufactured the devices in Hungary, then licensed the use of a legit Taiwanese company's name to sell the radios and pagers direct to Hezbollah is kinda nuts. The Israelis knew that the order was coming well in advance and designed working explosive loaded copies.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/18/w...hezbollah.html

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think this claim would come down to if Israel put the maximum amount of explosive in the phone they could or not. Watching the video in the fruit stand made it seem reasonable. It’s tragic that a child died because they were sitting on their father. I don’t think that satisfies the definition of terrorism on its own.

This was an attack on the military members of a country they are at war with.

I’d also argue this was designed to identify Hezbolah members and to spread fear in Hezbolah rather than in the general civilian population.

If Israel wants to spread fear in Lebanon you just follow the Gaza playbook. Bomb areas into submission tell people to go to safe zones than bomb the safe zones.

I think Israel fighting in Gaza like they do in Iran and Lebonon would represent significant progress.

5000 people are injured, it's definitely terrorism due to the indiscriminate nature of the attack. It would be like saying well it's ok to put explosives in the cars of Hezbollah members and then detonating them without knowing where the cars are at any moment and what is around them

[GGG]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

5000 people are injured, it's definitely terrorism due to the indiscriminate nature of the attack. It would be like saying well it's ok to put explosives in the cars of Hezbollah members and then detonating them without knowing where the cars are at any moment and what is around them

Not really as that ignores the scale of the explosion.

How small would the explosion have to be for you do not consider it terrorism? From what we know today do you think the targets of the pagers bombs were legitimate.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Looks like part two happened today as Israel blew up thousands of two way radios.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1836412960958259597


the other aspect that I was thinking about last night, would be how hard would it have been for Mossad to have informant sitting at every hospital tallying and taking pictures of everyone that came in with a traumatic injury, they probably have a pretty up to date roster now.

Don’t need that even. They likely have hacked the hospital system.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think this claim would come down to if Israel put the maximum amount of explosive in the phone they could or not. Watching the video in the fruit stand made it seem reasonable. It’s tragic that a child died because they were sitting on their father. I don’t think that satisfies the definition of terrorism on its own.

This was an attack on the military members of a country they are at war with.

I’d also argue this was designed to identify Hezbolah members and to spread fear in Hezbolah rather than in the general civilian population.

If Israel wants to spread fear in Lebanon you just follow the Gaza playbook. Bomb areas into submission tell people to go to safe zones than bomb the safe zones.

I think Israel fighting in Gaza like they do in Iran and Lebonon would represent significant progress.

The bolded are all assumptions. How many people were targeted? How many of them are actually 'terrorists'*?

Hezbollah does a lot of government work in areas of Lebanon too and it's not purely a terrorist organization as this narrative suggests. So Israel well and truly could have targeted plenty of peaceful people.


* And before anyone says 'hezbollah has terrorists within it so everyone is fair game' then we can say the same of the Israeli government because there are clear far right terrorists in there. So it would be ok to start picking off Israeli kids sitting on their uncles' laps?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

The bolded are all assumptions. How many people were targeted? How many of them are actually 'terrorists'*?

Hezbollah does a lot of government work in areas of Lebanon too and it's not purely a terrorist organization as this narrative suggests. So Israel well and truly could have targeted plenty of peaceful people.


* And before anyone says 'hezbollah has terrorists within it so everyone is fair game' then we can say the same of the Israeli government because there are clear far right terrorists in there. So it would be ok to start picking off Israeli kids sitting on their uncles' laps?

So here's the difficulty, it's not ok to shoot at the kid on purpose but it is just fine to kill the kid if the bullet is aimed at the uncle and misses

With the issue of pagers if Israel somehow managed to have them delivered just to Hezbollah then it isnt terrorism even if some non Hezbollah Lebanese were injured or killed, if they sold them from some dodgy cell phone repair front in Beirut to anyone who wanted one it is.

The point for both sides is you cant lash out and not expect a response, personally I think the pager thing is kind of brilliant but ramps up the tension, of course that is the whole point, Israel is looking for an excuse to go to war, full scale invasion of southern Lebanon to push Hezbollah back to Beirut permanently and more importantly keep Bibi out of jail and in power

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

So here's the difficulty, it's not ok to shoot at the kid on purpose but it is just fine to kill the kid if the bullet is aimed at the uncle and misses

With the issue of pagers if Israel somehow managed to have them delivered just to Hezbollah then it isnt terrorism even if some non Hezbollah Lebanese were injured or killed, if they sold them from some dodgy cell phone repair front in Beirut to anyone who wanted one it is.

The point for both sides is you cant lash out and not expect a response, personally I think the pager thing is kind of brilliant but ramps up the tension, of course that is the whole point, Israel is looking for an excuse to go to war, full scale invasion of southern Lebanon to push Hezbollah back to Beirut permanently and more importantly keep Bibi out of jail and in power

My view is a bit more holistic.

I think it's becoming clear that Israeli policy is not too far from treating all those around them as less-than-human. So yeah, haha they infiltrated the pagers and radios and now little kids are afraid of small electronic gadgets. But at the end of they day, the Israeli government's policy is to dehumanize and maim the societies around them.

I'm especially sensitive to it given the recent rhetoric in the US congress towards Muslims, and the historic lack of interest by the US in the death and destruction meted out to muslim societies.

I think it all points towards a level of immorality that everyone *should* be running away from, but some think it's super cool just like something out of the movies. It's disgusting and it's going to get more even more people killed under the guise of 'acceptable casualties.'

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by GGG

Not really as that ignores the scale of the explosion.

How small would the explosion have to be for you do not consider it terrorism? From what we know today do you think the targets of the pagers bombs were legitimate.

So let's say one group managed to do this with the devices of Canadian soldiers who they were at war with,you would be ok with a bunch of "small" explosions at grocery stores, schools, or wherever those soldiers happened to be within Canada if the situation was similar to the Middle East?

[Fuzz]

It's not a stretch at all to call what Israel did terrorism. I suspect it would be hard to find a definition of the word it doesn't fit. Purposefully maiming your enemy is pretty inhumane.


NOT TO SAY THAT HEZBOLLAH ISN'T ALSO INHUMANE (since it needs to be said for the slow people in the class)

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

The bolded are all assumptions. How many people were targeted? How many of them are actually 'terrorists'*?

Hezbollah does a lot of government work in areas of Lebanon too and it's not purely a terrorist organization as this narrative suggests. So Israel well and truly could have targeted plenty of peaceful people.


* And before anyone says 'hezbollah has terrorists within it so everyone is fair game' then we can say the same of the Israeli government because there are clear far right terrorists in there. So it would be ok to start picking off Israeli kids sitting on their uncles' laps?

Certainly assumptions but the lack of claims that civilians were target by the pager bombs from people to me suggests that the targeting was accurate. Have you seen any information suggesting Civilians were in possession of the pagers when they exploded? I’m certainly open to change my position if information on how the targeting worked changes.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think this claim would come down to if Israel put the maximum amount of explosive in the phone they could or not. Watching the video in the fruit stand made it seem reasonable. It’s tragic that a child died because they were sitting on their father. I don’t think that satisfies the definition of terrorism on its own.

This was an attack on the military members of a country they are at war with.

I’d also argue this was designed to identify Hezbolah members and to spread fear in Hezbolah rather than in the general civilian population.

If Israel wants to spread fear in Lebanon you just follow the Gaza playbook. Bomb areas into submission tell people to go to safe zones than bomb the safe zones.

I think Israel fighting in Gaza like they do in Iran and Lebonon would represent significant progress.

Exactly.

This also prevents a multitude of other issues like lack of food & other resources not getting to where they need to go because everything has been bombed to hell.

There is zero reason to be against this unless of course you don't believe Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.

Really exposing what people think here.

Start the thread everyone way saying Israel is being too reckless and should carry out more targeted attacks. Now that they are the goalposts have shifted and they're still to blame because in 1982 they did something else that was wrong. Conveniently its never Hezbollah that is wrong.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It's not a stretch at all to call what Israel did terrorism. I suspect it would be hard to find a definition of the word it doesn't fit. Purposefully maiming your enemy is pretty inhumane.


NOT TO SAY THAT HEZBOLLAH ISN'T ALSO INHUMANE (since it needs to be said for the slow people in the class)

Yes it a stretch, but not surprising coming from the typical no matter what Israel does it will always be terrorism crowd.

Exposing of course all the anti-Israel no matter what hacks that everyone kept claiming they absolutely were not throughout this entire thread, but now I guess we all see how fast the goalposts shift in order to maintain rather ridiculous positions.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

So let's say one group managed to do this with the devices of Canadian soldiers who they were at war with,you would be ok with a bunch of "small" explosions at grocery stores, schools, or wherever those soldiers happened to be within Canada if the situation was similar to the Middle East?

Are we bombing this area? If so yeah it would seem reasonable for a country we are at war with to attack our soldiers. If Russia sent in drones to blow up military targets in Canada because of the war in the Ukraine and civilians died as a result of the attack that seems like a natural consequence of us supporting the Ukraine. So certainly an attack similar to the video in the fruit store I would have a hard time calling that terrorism if it was a country we were at war with.

There is a line somewhere in this of the acceptable amount of civilian deaths to kill an enemy. It’s not the number in Gaza. It’s not the fake save zones in gaza.

To me with currently available information and my stated assumptions this is in the range of acceptable.

I note you didn’t answer my questions of you in my post. I’m interested in your take on were the targets legitimate and is there a size of explosion that wouldn’t have you calling this terrorism. Essentially what makes it terrorism to you.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Azure

Exactly.

This also prevents a multitude of other issues like lack of food & other resources not getting to where they need to go because everything has been bombed to hell.

There is zero reason to be against this unless of course you don't believe Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.

Really exposing what people think here.

Start the thread everyone way saying Israel is being too reckless and should carry out more targeted attacks. Now that they are the goalposts have shifted and they're still to blame because in 1982 they did something else that was wrong. Conveniently its never Hezbollah that is wrong.

Nobody is exposing jack ####.

There's just some nuance.

I've had a huge problem with the indiscriminate destruction of infrastructure by Israel. It's disgusting.

This pager thing is much better, but still not perfect and not as surgical as I'd like.

So somebody can say...'yeah, this is better than bombing apartment buildings' (it is) and also say...'you know, an improvement in tactics is great, this strategy is incredible and impressive, but too bad innocent people were still affected because there was literally no way to know how many completely innocent men, women and children were in the vicinity of gobs of devices exploding.'

And I think everyone thinking this is better (while still imperfect) would also acknowledge that the killing and kidnapping of innocent Israelis on October 7 was also terrible. Innocent people being killed by state actors is bad, obviously.

So, to say this...

There is zero reason to be against this unless of course you don't believe Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.

...actually does expose some pretty ####ty thinking, TBH. "Zero" reason? Like, a kid walking with their head beside their dad wearing his pager doesn't constitute a reason why this might not be perfect? JFC.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It's not a stretch at all to call what Israel did terrorism. I suspect it would be hard to find a definition of the word it doesn't fit. Purposefully maiming your enemy is pretty inhumane.


NOT TO SAY THAT HEZBOLLAH ISN'T ALSO INHUMANE (since it needs to be said for the slow people in the class)

I mean in a sense all war is inhumane and induces terror but the whole point of going to war is to attempt to maim as many of the other side as possible

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

So let's say one group managed to do this with the devices of Canadian soldiers who they were at war with,you would be ok with a bunch of "small" explosions at grocery stores, schools, or wherever those soldiers happened to be within Canada if the situation was similar to the Middle East?

Yes, my grans house was bombed by the Germans, we bombed them back, that is war, I don't like war but assuming a war is necessary I have no ethical problem with someone killing me as they try to say destroy Lions Gate Bridge, it's a legitimate target, civilians are also legitimate targets in war and always have been, you work in a tank factory or run a railway, you live next to a train track you are a legitimate target