[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[Ashasx]

If there's a couple things than Sven is not "average" at, it's passing and hockey sense.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Also, the reaction to the Erixon thing was almost 100% anger and "good riddance", the reaction to this is at least mixed with surprise and people wishing they hadn't traded him.

completely different situation. Erixon was dishonest and apparently even talked to another team behind tge Flames' back. In contrast, Sven did sign here, and given that his camp asked for a trade and said he wouldn't re-sign, he at least was honest and played with open cards. Erixon never did that.

[CsInMyBlood]

Anyone that thinks Sven had a fair shake here either didn't watch the games he played or is fooling themselves. 4th line. Bollig, Jooris, Setoguchi, Byron top linemates. Avg ice of 9 minutes. Stapled to the bench in the third period, regardless of how he had played in the game. Never put into a situation to succeed.

This is the thing that bothers me. The Flames never let him sink or swim, they just refused to find out what he actually was or wasn't.

When the Canucks actually give him a chance to play I guess we will all see what kind of hockey player Sven Baertschi is.

I have the feeling this one is going to look bad for the Flames for a long time.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

News1130 Sports @News1130Sports
Green says b careful b4 writing off Baertschi :"He needs to play in top 6, not bottom guy, gonna take time to re-develop his confidence."

Wouldn't be at all surprised if this happens and Sven becomes a top six guy for them. Flames may have done as well as they could under the circumstances but he is and will be an NHL player, wish it could have been for us.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Anyone that thinks Sven had a fair shake here either didn't watch the games he played or is fooling themselves. 4th line. Bollig, Jooris, Setoguchi, Byron top linemates. Avg ice of 9 minutes. Stapled to the bench in the third period, regardless of how he had played in the game. Never put into a situation to succeed.

This is the thing that bothers me. The Flames never let him sink or swim, they just refused to find out what he actually was or wasn't.

When the Canucks actually give him a chance to play I guess we will all see what kind of hockey player Sven Baertschi is.

I have the feeling this one is going to look bad for the Flames for a long time.

That's what the AHL is for. You prove yourself there, then you make the big club. You don't get gifted top 6 in the NHL because of your Junior pedigree and then mgmt decides from there if they keep you. That is Oilers Management 101.

Prove yourself in the AHL, prove you aren't afraid of hard work, prove you don't have a bad attitude, and good things will come. Was Jooris given anything? In fact, he had an OUTSTANDING camp and was still sent down. Did he let it ruin his confidence? Busted his ass even more and forced Brad's hand.

That's the difference between Sven & other prospects. I'm sad it didn't pan out since I was high on Sven for a long time. But he caused his own problems.

[Itse]

I'd also like to point out that every system does not fit every player.

The Canucks cycle the puck way more than we do, and generally play a rather different style. That alone could make a huge difference for a player like Baertchi. (And might be why the Canucks wanted Baertchi.)

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by MacFlame

The trade is not what really bothers me, but more so the way the coaching staff handled him throughout his development in the organization. Sitting him in favour of guys that truly didn't deserve to be played either (Jackman, Glencross at certain points, Raymond at certain points, Setogouchi, etc.) likely stuck with him.

No way you sit Glencross for Sven
Jackman plays a completely different position/style
Raymond has been better than Sven
Setoguchi is gone

At some point the onus falls on the player himself. Maybe he has the talent, maybe he doesn't, but he didn't show me much over the past year or so. As a big fan of his coming out of junior I kept expecting him to bust out and force the Flames to give him a spot, but he never did that. I don't care if you're on the 2nd line or the 4th line, you have to bust you butt and force the team to keep you around. Sven never did that. And in the meantime other prospects are passing him by. Sucks, and maybe he will show us more with Vancouver than he did here, but you can't keep players around forever waiting for them to take the next step.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Anyone that thinks Sven had a fair shake here either didn't watch the games he played or is fooling themselves. 4th line. Bollig, Jooris, Setoguchi, Byron top linemates. Avg ice of 9 minutes. Stapled to the bench in the third period, regardless of how he had played in the game. Never put into a situation to succeed.

Maybe Byron and Setoguchi wish they'd been put on lines away from Sven

I did watch the games and Sven didn't distinguish himself outside of a couple games. And when he did, Hartley gave him more time. Under Hartley it's as simple as that, and he's been consistent with all his players that way, from the top line on down. Basically your argument is that, even if Sven didn't play well, he should be given a better line position (over who - Glencross or Gaudreau?) and more time, even though he didn't earn it. Especially in the third period when the game is one the line and the Flames were often defending a lead - you don't put out your worst defensive forward.

As far as Green's comment is concerned, I don't think I want a player who constantly needs his confidence supported or restored by coaches and management. I want a player who can motivate himself. Hartley goes to Monahan and says you need to play better offensively. Monahan starts shooting and scoring. Hartley goes to Johnny and says your first 4 games haven't been good - I'm benching you. Johnny watches from the press box and improves. Ditto Jooris.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

If there's a couple things than Sven is not "average" at, it's passing and hockey sense.

I saw one great pass this year and nothing else. I saw a lot of poor hockey sense on the forecheck - he wasn't thinking at NHL speed and was on the wrong side of the defender and the puck a lot.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by debil

Someone should be fired for this. bartschi is second 1st round pick leaving this organization. this is huge mismanagement of young prospects. bartschi is still first round talent that was really not given enough chances.

I'm not sure why someone should be fired for 2 first round picks busting out. The odds of a first round pick becoming a player who plays 200 NHL games are something like 30 to 50% Cullen has the numbers somewhere on the tsn site.

A first round pick busting out is not a fireable offense. And it just so happens they did a pretty good job in a different round of the draft.

[Muta]

I'm starting to notice that Vancouver fans and media are suggesting the Canucks are going to 'get his development back on track'. Like, implying that what the Flames were doing wasn't good, and that their system will be much better. They're all confident it will happen.

Anyone else annoyed by this? Vancouver has a worse track record recently of developing prospects, so I'm not sure how their 'system' of developing players is going to be better than ours.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

News1130 Sports @News1130Sports
Green says b careful b4 writing off Baertschi :"He needs to play in top 6, not bottom guy, gonna take time to re-develop his confidence."

Well that's the problem in a nutshell for the Canucks next season. If Desjardins doesn't think he's good enough to play top 6 which certainly isn't a given then what do you do with him?

[Galakanokis]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

If there's a couple things than Sven is not "average" at, it's passing and hockey sense.

Offensively maybe but going the other way? More to hockey sense than just offense.

[bubbsy]

hard not to bounce back and forth on this trade.... can't seem to stop thinking about it.

There's a lot of connection of many flames fans to Sven simply because he was the face of the next era of the flames. He was the first prospect we've been so excited about, and then that emergency callup just put so much fuel in the fire.

My thoughts on him as we watched him with the big club:
- he's just not big/strong enough (yet?) to win battles, and not be an easy rub out for the avg NHL defenceman
- I didn't see a stand out quality offensively that showed his ability to be an NHL threat (speed, elusiveness, puck handling, passing). I felt when given top6 time with skilled players last year, he'd give up the puck a ton going for a 'hail mary' cross seam pass through Dmen that rarely, if ever, connected

my thoughts on the flames handling of Sven:
- my biggest argument that flames can't be to blame here, is that look at the team the last year or 2, and how many young kids have been up in the lineup that have shown great strides and progress. why is it that the other prospects have flourished in the flames development program and practices, but sven has suffered? It is hard to see him as a victim in all of this, when so many others have grown in the program.
- confidence seems to be a huge issue for him. things seem to snowball and it seems it is difficult for him to work his way out of it.
- when he was drafted, he was applauded for his attitude, demeanor, and work ethic to get better. it's been difficult to see these qualities since his first year turning pro.

as a flames fan, was optimistic that he'd eventually figure it out. Now that he's a canuck, i hope he continues on his current trajectory, and i feel bad for that, but it is what it is.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Muta

I'm starting to notice that Vancouver fans and media are suggesting the Canucks are going to 'get his development back on track'. Like, implying that what the Flames were doing wasn't good, and that their system will be much better. They're all confident it will happen.

Anyone else annoyed by this? Vancouver has a worse track record recently of developing prospects, so I'm not sure how their 'system' of developing players is going to be better than ours.

Of course they think that. Just as the Flames, along with local media and fans would think the exact same thing about a player coming here.

The reason the Canucks acquired him is exactly that: they think they can get his development back on track.

Sometimes it happens. Sometimes it just takes a fresh start or a different system. Sometimes the player just isn't good enough. We'll see how it goes here.

For the Flames though, time was up. They didn't see him making the roster by October and he/his agent forced their hand.

That's fine, it happens.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Muta

I'm starting to notice that Vancouver fans and media are suggesting the Canucks are going to 'get his development back on track'. Like, implying that what the Flames were doing wasn't good, and that their system will be much better. They're all confident it will happen.

Anyone else annoyed by this? Vancouver has a worse track record recently of developing prospects, so I'm not sure how their 'system' of developing players is going to be better than ours.

When a 1st round picks development stalls you can look at it like the player hasn't been progressing as it was envisioned when he was drafted or that he hasn't been a good fit with the organization. Canucks fans can throw their hat on the latter but at the end of the day nothing matters except Baertchi's play and that's what's going to dictate if he develops.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well that's the problem in a nutshell for the Canucks next season. If Desjardins doesn't think he's good enough to play top 6 which certainly isn't a given then what do you do with him?

Exactly. There is a good chance he may still be put on waivers if he can't break into the top 6 for Van.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I saw one great pass this year and nothing else. I saw a lot of poor hockey sense on the forecheck - he wasn't thinking at NHL speed and was on the wrong side of the defender and the puck a lot.

I saw different.

He's also made great strides in his own end.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

The only thing that grinds my gears about this trade is that it is yet another (over hyped?) first rounder that didn't pan out for the Flames. It is the wrong way to look at it, but it feels like we traded the 13th overall pick for a 2nd rounder. The resulting question is how much value should we really put into 1st round picks?

Year.....Player Name..........Games with the Flames
2004.....Kris Chucko...........2GP
2005.....Matt Pelech..........13GP
2006.....Leland Irving.........13GP
2007.....Mikael Backlund.....278GP
2008.....Greg Nemisz..........15GP(Traded so not to extend him)
2009.....Tim Erixon.............0GP(Didn't want to play for CGY)
2010.....N/A
2011.....Sven Bartschi........66GP(Didn't want to play for CGY)

Ouch, admitted, but still, I'd make a big distinction between the guys that are still in the system and developing and the guys that are not. It's hard say what we have in Jankowski, but I'd say his chances of developing into something like Colborne, a useful bottom 6 player with some size and skill.

Also of note I think: before Chucko we drafted Phaneuf, Nyström and Kobasew, who all are solid NHL players. (Or were, in Kobasews case I guess. Ended up with 601GP, 100 goals, 110 assists. )

2012.....Mark Jankowski......0GP
2013....Sean Monahan.......137GP
2013.....Emile Poirier .... 3GP
2013......Morgan Klimchuk ... 0GP
2014......Sam Bennett .... 0GP

There's hope here.

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Originally Posted by Muta

I'm starting to notice that Vancouver fans and media are suggesting the Canucks are going to 'get his development back on track'. Like, implying that what the Flames were doing wasn't good, and that their system will be much better. They're all confident it will happen.

Anyone else annoyed by this? Vancouver has a worse track record recently of developing prospects, so I'm not sure how their 'system' of developing players is going to be better than ours.

We're talking about a track history of about a season or so.

Travis Green and Baertschi have a history. I'm less confident in Desjardins. He's been hit or miss with the younger players so far this season.