Israel declares war on Hamas

[Language]

The problem is Israel got themselves into a monumental, historic and utterly inexcusable screw up on Oct 7th, a failure unlike no other that is still unfathomable to rationalize to this day.

I’m not the biggest fan of Bibi, but I don’t honestly believe he is torpedoing a hostage-ceasefire deal just to stay in power longer. Obviously from a hostage family’s standpoint, and many other that support a hostage deal, after Israel’s epic failure on 10/7, the feeling is they need to do whatever it takes to return the hostages. And that’s a very reasonable and understanding perspective.

Article below does a pretty good job of detailing how the division within Israel is playing right into Hamas’s hand, and also explaining why not achieving the full war aim of dismantling Hamas and being persistent on managing the Philadelphi corridor has become an issue.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-...-talks-report/

In the document, Hamas also plans talking points, blaming “Israel’s stubbornness” as delaying a deal. It also reportedly lists Hamas’s main objectives in a deal. One is securing the release of 100 Palestinian prisoners held by Israel serving life sentences, usually for murder.

Another purported Hamas goal is to have forces from Arab countries stationed along the Israel-Gaza border as part of a more permanent ceasefire, to serve as a buffer between Israel and Hamas, thus allowing Hamas to recuperate and reorganize under the protection of these forces.

Notably, Israel has also reportedly suggested that a coalition of Arab forces administrate the enclave at some point in the future. Unlike the Hamas proposal, the Israeli plan would see the Arab forces ensuring Hamas does not rehabilitate its military capabilities.

The report also noted that the document does not mention the Philadelphi Corridor, despite the strip of land on the Gaza-Egypt border recently becoming a key sticking point in negotiations. This may be attributed to the time the document was written, as Israel only took control of the Philadelphi Corridor in May.


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[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Language

I’m not the biggest fan of Bibi, but I don’t honestly believe he is torpedoing a hostage-ceasefire deal just to stay in power longer.

That's currently quite an isolated belief given the multiple media, both within and outside Israel that report and suggest otherwise.

Are you saying that he's not torpedoing the deal at all or are you saying that he is but for reasons other than staying in power?

You feel the families are wrong when they say that “the finding of the bodies yesterday is a direct result of Netanyahu’s thwarting of the deals.”?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Bagor

That's currently quite an isolated belief given the multiple media, both within and outside Israel that report and suggest otherwise.

Are you saying that he's not torpedoing the deal at all or are you saying that he is but for reasons other than staying in power?

You feel the families are wrong when they say that “the finding of the bodies yesterday is a direct result of Netanyahu’s thwarting of the deals.”?

I don’t think it’s fair to use the families arguement against Bibi here. Regardless of fault they would blame him. They are not independent here. It’s like asking the relative of a murder victim if capital punishment is appropriate.

[Language]

Originally Posted by Bagor

That's currently quite an isolated belief given the multiple media, both within and outside Israel that report and suggest otherwise.

Are you saying that he's not torpedoing the deal at all or are you saying that he is but for reasons other than staying in power?

You feel the families are wrong when they say that “the finding of the bodies yesterday is a direct result of Netanyahu’s thwarting of the deals.”?

I don’t believe he’s torpedoing a deal for his political benefit and for the sole reason to stay in power.

I think he has certain red lines, relating to Israel’s security, that he doesn’t want to give in to. And more than likely, some of those red lines have been extended as the war has gone on. For example, until Israel went into Rafah and found all the smuggling tunnels under the Philadelphi corridor (primary method of weapons transfer), it’s likely become a new sticking point in negotiations, that didn’t exist before.

Regarding what the families are saying. They are obviously talking from a very emotional and personal standpoint. Heck, if I was in their unenviable position, I’d probably be saying the same thing. But I don’t think you can honestly say the hostages died because of Netanyahu. Plain and simply, they died because Hamas kidnapped them, and Hamas executed them. They are dead only because of Hamas. Saying they are dead because of Netanyahu suggests that he should accept any deal to return them alive. And again, from the family’s standpoint, it’s a legitimate argument after Israel’s 10/7 failures to protect them to begin with. But they can’t just accept any deal and unless you’re in the negotiating room, no one can truly say who is objecting to what, and where the negotiations are stalling (both from Israel’s and Hamas’s point of view).


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[Bagor]

Originally Posted by GGG

I don’t think it’s fair to use the families arguement against Bibi here. Regardless of fault they would blame him. They are not independent here. It’s like asking the relative of a murder victim if capital punishment is appropriate.

Maybe. But you could argue that they have their finger on the pulse of the negotiations and whimsy emotional investment is a valid point their level of aware v can't be completely discounted when they accuse him of thwarting deals.

To add. From the CNN link then there are accusations that "rather than accepting that proposal, the Israeli negotiators submitted new demands, making changes to the proposals they themselves had originally made".

I'm just curious what other reason other than staying in power would he be able have for torpedoing any deal.

Asides from prolonging the killing, suffering and the destruction of Gaza.

[CalgaryKid12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You kind of did treat people exactly that way?

I didn't think I did, but it's important for me to learn from my mistakes and grow, so I would appreciate if you could elaborate on that and provide some examples.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Beliefs aren’t sacrosanct, regardless of whether they come from the heart or how strongly we believe them.

Using valid trauma, generational or otherwise, to justify causing further trauma and justify the belief that maybe that’s OK or that this previous trauma should somehow shield people from even a small percentage of valid criticism, is dangerous stuff that should be condemned.

Agreed. But I think you may have misread/misunderstood my first post. The only thing I stated with conviction and used the Holocaust to justify was the right and necessity for the state of Israel to exist. I then simply provided context as to why the Israeli government may have reacted in the way that they did (rightly or wrongly). I feel that it's become quite popular to pile on Israel and I'm concerned that the anti-Israel mob lacks the background history on the region and the attacks on Israel (i.e. 6 day war, Yom Kippur war, first and second intifadas, to name a few). it was everyone else who said that I "used the Holocaust to justify the ongoing genocide". I did not and I would appreciate an apology for people making those assertions.

[CalgaryKid12]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Hamas isn't blowing up children lining up for polio vaccines, so, well...YES, THEY ARE THE BAD GUYS. Open your eyes. You are correct it is important to be compassionate to others, something Bibi is completely incapable of.

Not saying the above didn't happen, but I did try to search for a credible news article to confirm that heinous act, but came up empty-handed. Could you please link a source (other than some Twitter rando) to verify?

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

Not saying the above didn't happen, but I did try to search for a credible news article to confirm that heinous act, but came up empty-handed. Could you please link a source (other than some Twitter rando) to verify?

Lol.

[Zary's-Mustache]

https://x.com/ajplus/status/1768642055436144957?s=19

This was way before Oct 7th. Terrorists being Terrorists.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

The only thing I stated with conviction and used the Holocaust to justify was the right and necessity for the state of Israel to exist. I then simply provided context as to why the Israeli government may have reacted in the way that they did (rightly or wrongly). I feel that it's become quite popular to pile on Israel and I'm concerned that the anti-Israel mob lacks the background history on the region and the attacks on Israel (i.e. 6 day war, Yom Kippur war, first and second intifadas, to name a few). it was everyone else who said that I "used the Holocaust to justify the ongoing genocide". I did not and I would appreciate an apology for people making those assertions.

Lol

It's become quite popular to pile on Israel? Poor Israel. How unfair all those people worldwide that see a genocide happening and are sickened by it? Don't they understand?

You are seriously so either arrogant or ignorant as to why Israel has become a pariah state? You think it's some popular pile on?

[robertsfan]

From the link and article below:

https://x.com/jonathan_k_cook/status...PW0P5yX3muLt6g

“The headline news is that Israeli intelligence has found Netanyahu's office forged two Hamas documents, as part of a disinformation campaign to justify his refusal to agree a ceasefire in Gaza.

That's not the real story, however. Which is: (see below article):

https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-819230

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

https://x.com/ajplus/status/1768642055436144957?s=19

This was way before Oct 7th. Terrorists being Terrorists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre


This was way before Oct 7th too, probably your heros no doubt.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre


This was way before Oct 7th too, probably your heros no doubt.

Unlike you, I don't support terrorism little buddy. I hope your mom knows you're using her internet for terrorist supporting activities.

[activeStick]

Israeli attacks have killed at least 18 civilians in central Syria, according to their health minister. Watching the report now on City News Toronto.

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Unlike you, I don't support terrorism little buddy. I hope your mom knows you're using her internet for terrorist supporting activities.

Who are you trying to fool with that nonsense you little Trumper?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

Not saying the above didn't happen, but I did try to search for a credible news article to confirm that heinous act, but came up empty-handed. Could you please link a source (other than some Twitter rando) to verify?

She's a reporter, but here's another.

https://aje.io/kc8md0?update=3154614

It doesn't confirm it was for polio vaccines, but says a bread line, so I guess that makes it a little better? Or maybe both were happening at the time in that location. Expecting detailed reporting on every incident in a place where Israel shoots reporters is probably asking a bit much.

The specific details don't really matter, I could have chosen from hundreds of other monstrous acts that show the Israeli government is also the BAD GUY. That one was just the post above mine.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

Who are you trying to fool with that nonsense you little Trumper?

Hey, it seems like some information was shared about hostages and their families relating to the current situation that you seem to ignoring in favour of more brain dead bickering. Just wondering if you’d like to put some intelligent thought into it and comment or if hostages are another thing you were just pretending to care about?

[Fuzz]

Pepsi, if you are looking for a similar challenge I have a needle and a camel for you to practice on.

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Hey, it seems like some information was shared about hostages and their families relating to the current situation that you seem to ignoring in favour of more brain dead bickering. Just wondering if you’d like to put some intelligent thought into it and comment or if hostages are another thing you were just pretending to care about?

Oh your brain dead comments blaming Israel for their own murdered hostages? I don't give a #### about your conspiracies or your mental gymnastics that you go through to completely ignore Hama starting the war, kidnapping and murdering the hostages. Are you sure you don't want to twist this into some LGBT thing as well because you think you represent all LGBT in the world?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

Oh your brain dead comments blaming Israel for their own murdered hostages? I don't give a #### about your conspiracies or your mental gymnastics that you go through to completely ignore Hama starting the war, kidnapping and murdering the hostages. Are you sure you don't want to twist this into some LGBT thing as well because you think you represent all LGBT in the world?

Well, considering my “comments” were questions on what you think of the views and actions of Israeli hostages, their families, and Israeli protestors, I guess we’ll take it as you “not giving a #### about them or their mental gymnastics.”

Is there anyone you won’t pretend to care about and turn around and trash when they don’t fit your narrative?