Israel declares war on Hamas

[peter12]

Ah the usual Hamas-pilled posters being Hamas-pilled.

[FlamesAddiction]

The bombing of Dresden at the end of WW2 killed 25,000 civilians, but I am sure people can agree that bombing an enemy into capitulation is morally different than sending people to a gas chamber.

It's a tragedy no matter what of course. No one is saying that civilian casualties in Gaza aren't a tragedy. Some people believe that Israel's actions now are necessary for security and are justified for that reason, but I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that what Hamas did over the last few days was necessary for defense and hiding among children doesn't give them a moral license to get away with it. If these militants were noble, they would come out of hiding and separate themselves from the civilian population.

[blankall]

One thing that seems to be prevalent on one side of this argument is the inability to acknowledge the basic fact that Hamas has hidden soldiers and military infrastructure amongst their own civilians.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

One thing that seems to be prevalent on one side of this argument is the inability to acknowledge the basic fact that Hamas has hidden soldiers and military infrastructure amongst their own civilians.

It’s been acknowledged repeatedly and is such a well-established fact that it’s safe to assume people who repeatedly bring it up as though it hasn’t been acknowledge or use one of several related straw men (like saying “if Hamas are so noble…” which literally nobody has argued) have little interest in honest discussion.

[Lanny_McDonald]

The Middle East was, continues to be, and always will be a #### show. You're never going to get two cultures who base everything they do on competing religions to settle their differences. Eliminate the religious nonsense and maybe a lasting peace is possible. But as long as religion is front and center to this, nothing will change. Both sides will commit atrocities in the sake of defending their beliefs.

I actually feel for the Palestinians. They are living under apartheid and are subjected to being fourth class citizens with few rights. They are driven to those who have the strength and support to stand up to those who oppress them, but ultimately they are the worst representatives they could have and only suffer because of their actions. They are pawns in a sick game playing out in front of us. They have no hope of victory in any shape or form. Israel will get them killed because they don't value them as people. Hamas will get them killed because they only want to inflict damage on Israel and hide behind the Palestinians. What a horrible existence they must face. My sympathy goes out to them because they are the innocents caught in the crossfire and treated like chattel regardless of the actions by either side.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s been acknowledged repeatedly and is such a well-established fact that it’s safe to assume people who repeatedly bring it up as though it hasn’t been acknowledge or use one of several related straw men (like saying “if Hamas are so noble…” which literally nobody has argued) have little interest in honest discussion.

Okay, from an "honest discussion" point of view. Let's say you are now running Israel. How do you respond to this attack?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s been acknowledged repeatedly and is such a well-established fact that it’s safe to assume people who repeatedly bring it up as though it hasn’t been acknowledge or use one of several related straw men (like saying “if Hamas are so noble…” which literally nobody has argued) have little interest in honest discussion.

It actually isn't being acknowledged as posters continually accuse Israel of purposely targeting civilians, as opposed to stating the actual fact that Israel is targeting Hamas, with civilians potentially in the way. And yes, there is a major difference, as its Hamas who's both provoking the Israeli attacks and putting those civilians in the way.

There are totally fair arguments to make about alternative measure Israel should be taking, but that's not what's happening.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by blankall

It actually isn't being acknowledged as posters continually accuse Israel of purposely targeting civilians, as opposed to stating the actual fact that Israel is targeting Hamas, with civilians potentially in the way. And yes, there is a major difference, as its Hamas who's both provoking the Israeli attacks and putting those civilians in the way.

There are totally fair arguments to make about alternative measure Israel should be taking, but that's not what's happening.

Do you think Israel would bomb a building with confirmed Hamas equipment/militants in it, if it was also filled with Israeli civilians?

(The answer is no, because Likud believes Palestinians are subhuman so their civvies are fair targets)

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

The Middle East was, continues to be, and always will be a #### show. You're never going to get two cultures who base everything they do on competing religions to settle their differences. Eliminate the religious nonsense and maybe a lasting peace is possible. But as long as religion is front and center to this, nothing will change. Both sides will commit atrocities in the sake of defending their beliefs.

I actually feel for the Palestinians. They are living under apartheid and are subjected to being fourth class citizens with few rights. They are driven to those who have the strength and support to stand up to those who oppress them, but ultimately they are the worst representatives they could have and only suffer because of their actions. They are pawns in a sick game playing out in front of us. They have no hope of victory in any shape or form. Israel will get them killed because they don't value them as people. Hamas will get them killed because they only want to inflict damage on Israel and hide behind the Palestinians. What a horrible existence they must face. My sympathy goes out to them because they are the innocents caught in the crossfire and treated like chattel regardless of the actions by either side.

This isn’t a religious war for most Jews and Israelis. What the hell are you on about. This is our ethnic homeland, which we were expelled resulting in 2000 years of persecution. You may think this is a religious battle because you read up on this conflict once every few years when it is in the news, but to Jews this is about the survival of our people and always has been. We don’t convert, we are not competing with any religion for global domination. In an ideal world we would have loved to live side by side with peaceful neighbours but that has never been the case. Israel was born out of war because the Islamic world could not stand for a Jewish state. The Palestinians have had many opportunities for their own state even after waging wars but have continuously shot themselves in the foot.

[_Q_]

I actually don't think the IDF is going to specifically targets civilians. I do think however, they're very generous with what they consider a military target.

It's not, "hey there's a 7 year old, go shoot him."

It's more like "hey there's a house intact there, go blow it up because Hamas."

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Beninho

This isn’t a religious war for most Jews and Israelis. What the hell are you on about. This is our ethnic homeland, which we were expelled resulting in 2000 years of persecution. You may think this is a religious battle because you read up on this conflict once every few years when it is in the news, but to Jews this is about the survival of our people and always has been. We don’t convert, we are not competing with any religion for global domination. In an ideal world we would have loved to live side by side with peaceful neighbours but that has never been the case. Israel was born out of war because the Islamic world could not stand for a Jewish state.

That right there is a pretty extremist view based on your book of fairy tales. Sorry to say man. Nobody "returns" after 2000 years.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

That right there is a pretty extremist view based on your book of fairy tales. Sorry to say man. Nobody "returns" after 2000 years.

Interesting because it happened. History is a fairy tale to you?

The fact you think what I said is a fairytale tells me everything I need to know.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Do you think Israel would bomb a building with confirmed Hamas equipment/militants in it, if it was also filled with Israeli civilians?

(The answer is no, because Likud believes Palestinians are subhuman so their civvies are fair targets)

This is a bunk argument. All nations have a responsibility to protect their own citizens. If Israel doesn't strike Hamas, they are putting their own citizens in jeopardy.

The Palestinians must see themselves as "subhuman", as they have their militants hiding behind citizens. The Israeli army would never do that either.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

It actually isn't being acknowledged as posters continually accuse Israel of purposely targeting civilians, as opposed to stating the actual fact that Israel is targeting Hamas, with civilians potentially in the way. And yes, there is a major difference, as it’s Hamas who's both provoking the Israeli attacks and putting those civilians in the way.

There are totally fair arguments to make about alternative measure Israel should be taking, but that's not what's happening.

This has also been acknowledged ad nauseam.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by blankall

It actually isn't being acknowledged as posters continually accuse Israel of purposely targeting civilians, as opposed to stating the actual fact that Israel is targeting Hamas, with civilians potentially in the way. And yes, there is a major difference, as its Hamas who's both provoking the Israeli attacks and putting those civilians in the way.

There are totally fair arguments to make about alternative measure Israel should be taking, but that's not what's happening.

As had been said repeatedly, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and Israel in return builds settlements there.that is also "targetting civilians". If that's what Israel is doing there, is it really that hard to believe that they are not intentionally bombing civilians in Gaza?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Do you think Israel would bomb a building with confirmed Hamas equipment/militants in it, if it was also filled with Israeli civilians?

(The answer is no, because Likud believes Palestinians are subhuman so their civvies are fair targets)

There are Israeli hostages all over Gaza, and it’s almost certain some of them will be killed in the bombing.

But if what you’re asking is if Israel is as concerned about the lives of enemy non-combatants are they are of their own citizens, then the answer is no. Of course that’s true of every government in every country in history.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Interesting because it happened. History is a fairy tale to you?

The fact you think what I said is a fairytale tells me everything I need to know about you.

What happened? The expulsion of Jews?

Yes, some were. Some weren't. They just became Christians, who then, for the most part, converted to Islam.

Or are you talking about it "belonging" solely to jews because the big guy in the sky told you so? There were and continue to be many different races and religions in the country and there will always continue to be.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

What happened? The expulsion of Jews?

Yes, some were. Some weren't. They just became Christians, who then, for the most part, converted to Islam.

Or are you talking about it "belonging" solely to jews because the big guy in the sky told you so? There were and continue to be many different races and religions in the country and there will always continue to be.

Jews accepted the 1948 partition plan to live side by side with the Arabs. Which side didn’t? Which side gave citizenship to the other group to those who stayed within their borders?

There was a mass explosion of Jews. The land is the homeland of the Jewish people and religion. I’m not going to argue with you further. We know you wish it was the 23rd Arab state with maybe a few Jews the Palestinians would allow to stay. Sorry the Arabs had to give up this sliver of land while controlling the rest of the middle east, including all of its oil reserves.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

As had been said repeatedly, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and Israel in return builds settlements there.that is also "targetting civilians". If that's what Israel is doing there, is it really that hard to believe that they are not intentionally bombing civilians in Gaza?

Yeah but see, Israel builds communities there because Judea and Samaria is the indigenous homeland of the jews. So the Palestinians just need to quietly file out and make room for the master race. After all Moses clearly brokered that deal with the creator.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by blankall

This is a bunk argument. All nations have a responsibility to protect their own citizens. If Israel doesn't strike Hamas, they are putting their own citizens in jeopardy.

The Palestinians must see themselves as "subhuman", as they have their militants hiding behind citizens. The Israeli army would never do that either.

Then they should take it to the ground to reduce civilian casualties, or just glass it.

Seems like indiscriminately bombing stuff is a half-measure