2024/2025 Trade Rumours and Speculation thread

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by BigThief

He's Vezina calibre this year, wasn't last year, might not be next year when he turns 35 and is still owed 12 million dollars over his last two seasons. Players, especially goalies can go from valuable to dump territory at that age fast. MA Fluery won the Vezina and was promptly traded for Mikael Hakkarainen who hadn't played an an NHL game and didn't (since retired due to heart condition).

Trying to predict goalie value is a fool's game. It's entirely possible Markstrom's value won't ever come close to what New Jersey was offering again

His value will be keeping a veteran Vezina calibre goalie to show Wolf the ropes and to mentor him. An apprentice needs a good teacher to learn the small ins and outs of being a professional at this level day in and day out.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by BigThief

He's Vezina calibre this year, wasn't last year, might not be next year when he turns 35 and is still owed 12 million dollars over his last two seasons. Players, especially goalies can go from valuable to dump territory at that age fast. MA Fluery won the Vezina and was promptly traded for Mikael Hakkarainen who hadn't played an an NHL game and didn't (since retired due to heart condition).

Trying to predict goalie value is a fool's game. It's entirely possible Markstrom's value won't ever come close to what New Jersey was offering again

Jacob Markstrom, like it or not, has been one of the most consistent goalies in the league for the better part of a decade. He’s not the best goalie in the league, but if you’re a team that considers goaltending a weakness, he’s better than what you have.

The dollars are non-prohibitive. The term is reasonable.

He will have value for the remainder of his deal.

And not for nothing, but if Wolf and Markstrom go 37/45 next year and both put up .910 or better, this is a playoff team.

[TaranakiFlame]

Kia Ora. I have been a "guest" on this forum, ever since I moved to Calgary in 2006. I am originally from the Uk, but met my kiwi wife in Cowtown in 2013.. Just over a year ago we moved to New Plymouth, New Zealand on the North Island.
Go Flames Go

[Tbull8]

Originally Posted by TaranakiFlame

Kia Ora. I have been a "guest" on this forum, ever since I moved to Calgary in 2006. I am originally from the Uk, but met my kiwi wife in Cowtown in 2013.. Just over a year ago we moved to New Plymouth, New Zealand on the North Island.
Go Flames Go

Welcome! I can’t remember the name of the cafe but when I was in New Zealand there was one in Queenstown that had a ton of nhl memorabilia in it. Was a pleasant surprise, and then the owner got talking about hockey with us. Great to see the reach that the game is getting!

[TaranakiFlame]

They play ice hockey in Queenstown, I just looked into it, they are called Skycity Stampede, there are 5 other teams across the country.

[Party Elephant]

Originally Posted by TaranakiFlame

They play ice hockey in Queenstown, I just looked into it, they are called Skycity Stampede, there are 5 other teams across the country.

Welcome to the board! I played in 2 of the amateur adult leagues in Queenstown for years when I lived there. Great hockey scene in that town, run by a lot of very passionate hockey people.

[TaranakiFlame]

That's awesome. I think if ever we got a team in Taranaki, they would probably end up being like the Charlestown Chiefs! Lol

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Tbull8

Welcome! I can’t remember the name of the cafe but when I was in New Zealand there was one in Queenstown that had a ton of nhl memorabilia in it. Was a pleasant surprise, and then the owner got talking about hockey with us. Great to see the reach that the game is getting!

There's a couple of bars that show hockey in Queenstown, Xtreme Sports Bar will put on anything you want in the morning/afternoon and the Pig and Whistle Pub has shown Stanley Cup games.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Which of Huberdeau, Mangiapane, Coleman, and Zary would he knock out of the top 6?

Possibly Mangipane and Zary. Zary should be playing in the middle anyways, so having some depth on the wings would make that move more likely. We need more potential centers and Zary should be there. Holtz would be a good fit on the right side.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

LOL

You were the furthest off, on the Lindholm trade, of anyone (but still claimed to be right)

You called Miromanov a throw-in on the Hanifin trade, Grushnikov a throw-in on the Tanev trade, just as you called Kuzmenko a cap dump. But claiming you were 'proven right in spades' is right on brand - I'll give you that.

What a joke. This is one of my pet peeves, where certain posters, the one quoted being one of the worst at the practice, take another posters thoughts out of context and twist them into something not said. This is done with malicious intent in hopes of painting another poster in a negative light. To me, this is on the same level as a Moon or Spurs or any of the other trolls have done because they are not attempting to have an honest debate on issues. And just like those trolls you can't put them on ignore because they are so active in spamming their #### everywhere.

Perfect examples to counter the crap posted above. Exact quotes.

On the Lindholm deal, my thoughts.

"Pretty good return considering the year Lindholm was having. I figured they would get a 1st, a "B" prospect, and lesser prospect, so pretty close. Was hoping for no retention and no bad contract coming back, so the addition of Kuzmenko is a bit of a bummer. Maybe they can turn Kuzmenko into another draft pick or middling prospect. I think that the additions of Brzustewicz and Jurmo fill a gap in the system, so that is a big positive. No bluechip prospects, but fills gaps. The first is going to help if they can turn that into a solid prospect. There's potential here."

On Miromanov and the Hanifin deal.

"Ouch. That's a terrible return. Not only do the Flames have to retain, but they have to eat a contract to make it happen, and they only get two picks out of it? If Dreger is accurate, Conroy buried the wedge on this one"

This was consistent with the reaction to the trade, from all corners of CP. Remember where the Flames were going to get Lundell or Howard plus a 2026 1st rounder pick? Yeah, instead of a prospect we got a 26 year old with less than 30 games of experience for a 27 year old with 660 games under his belt. Miromanov is slightly better than Hanley for the team, and you know where we got Hanley. The picks and the process to get them was also equally under scrutiny. Here are a couple of other posters you can take out of context net time.

"Is that for real??

Yikes. That's not a good trade at all."

"Unreal. Vegas was in full control of this negotiation. You want a 2025 pick? Sure, maybe, only if we don't or can't move it in the next 2 days, otherwise take our 2026 pick and like it."

Let's just accept this was not a good deal and not many people liked it.

On Grushnikov and the Tanev deal.

"Really surprised how the return has been almost universally sneered at and think the Flames didn't get much value. I think Conroy did okay here considering he was always aiming for 2nd plus a "B" prospect. To me, it was mission accomplished. I also think the prospect fits nicely in the system and definitely plays for the club in the future."

No throw-in. A solid grab and a future player for the team. Just another misrepresentation of the truth from you.

On the deadline and the trades up to the Hanifin deal.

"I think Conroy has done a pretty good job in moving pieces around so far. He's restocked the blueline and positioned it nicely IMO, with a balance of skill, size, and defensive responsibility. Proirier, Morin, and Brzustewicz are complemented by Kuznetsov, Solovyov, Grushnikov, and Jurmo. He got a mitt full of picks to deal with the gaps left behind by Treliving so the system will be replenished or he has draft capital to make deals at the draft.

He's got a couple more assets he really should exploit in Hanifin and Markstrom. These two are crucial and need to help address the gaps up front. I still have concerns he overplayed his hand with New Jersey and Markstrom. Getting a quality young forward like Holtz and a 1st may be a lost opportunity. I hope this isn't the case and he can circle back and grab those assets. Also have to hope that he can turn Hanifin into a good forward prospect and another few picks. The Flames have some good pieces but are sorely lacking the top end talent needed. Young players with top six potential should be targets from here on out. Must get some help in the middle!"

I don't mind being called out when I make a mistake but I appreciate my actual position, in context, be used and not those dreamed up by someone with an obvious axe to grind or agenda be set. I'm all for honest rhetorical engagement in these discussions but there are a number here that prefer to manufacture positions and twist people's words rather than attempt to engage in debate. It's sad and pathetic and worse behavior than the spammers like Moon or Spurs.

[GioforPM]

Holtz is not a top six player on this team right now. And if he ever is, it means that the Flames drafting and developing hasn't worked out. He's Dube level.

He's not a centre. Right now, he's behind Huberdeau, Coleman, Zary, Mangiapane, on the wing. And maybe Pospisil as well. And if you say Zary should be a centre, then Sharangovich should be a winger.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Holtz is not a top six player on this team right now. And if he ever is, it means that the Flames drafting and developing hasn't worked out. He's Dube level.

He's not a centre. Right now, he's behind Huberdeau, Coleman, Zary, Mangiapane, on the wing. And maybe Pospisil as well. And if you say Zary should be a centre, then Sharangovich should be a winger.

Dube level? Not even remotely close. You need to actually watch the kid play. He's buried in a lineup, and like Sharahgovich, just needs opportunity. People talk like he's some aging veteran and not a 22 year old who is actually four months younger than Zary. He's also a natural RW so rather than trying to go with an off wing player on the starboard side you get someone that can handle the pucks on that side of the ice. If we are looking at actual positions where players should be, Huberdeau, Coleman, Zary, and Mangiapane are all left shots so should be deployed on the left side where they have played most of their careers. But keep throwing out names. We shouldn't try and bring in players that have a natural advantage in the position they play. Better to keep forcing players over to their off wing. That worked so well with so many players in the past!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Dube level? Not even remotely close. You need to actually watch the kid play. He's buried in a lineup, and like Sharahgovich, just needs opportunity. People talk like he's some aging veteran and not a 22 year old who is actually four months younger than Zary. He's also a natural RW so rather than trying to go with an off wing player on the starboard side you get someone that can handle the pucks on that side of the ice. If we are looking at actual positions where players should be, Huberdeau, Coleman, Zary, and Mangiapane are all left shots so should be deployed on the left side where they have played most of their careers. But keep throwing out names. We shouldn't try and bring in players that have a natural advantage in the position they play. Better to keep forcing players over to their off wing. That worked so well with so many players in the past!

Wedging Holtz into the top two lines at RW because he's a RHS doesn't make him a top six forward. A top six forward is one of the top six forwards on your team regardless of position. Or was Backlund not a top six level player when Lindholm was here?

The top seven forwards on Calgary are Kadri, Huberdeau, Coleman, Backlund, Zary, Sharangovich, Mangiapane. Holtz isn't as good as any of them. And I stand by the Dube comparison. Seems like a talent, leaves you wanting more.

Conroy is big on finding underutilized players: Sharangovich, Miromanov, Pachal. Yet he passed on Holtz. That should be a flag.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Wedging Holtz into the top two lines at RW because he's a RHS doesn't make him a top six forward. A top six forward is one of the top six forwards on your team regardless of position.

See Sharangovich to show just how bad your position is. Was a healthy scratch in Jersey and wasn't playing at all. Amazing what can happen with opportunity.

Also sounds like Conroy didn't pass on Holtz, the Bean counter did.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

See Sharangovich to show just how bad your position is. Was a healthy scratch in Jersey and wasn't playing at all. Amazing what can happen with opportunity.

Also sounds like Conroy didn't pass on Holtz, the Bean counter did.

I'm all for opportunity when a player is underutilized. So is Conroy. That's why Conroy took Sharangovich.

You don't know that Bean nixed Holtz. I suspect that Conroy was selling the team on a pick plus Mercer for Markstrom and Holtz for the retention. When retention was off the table by NJ, Conroy wanted just pick plus Mercer. NJ offered just pick plus Holtz.

Your problem is you think Markstrom is worth a second and a prospect winger. Calgary thinks Markstorm is worth a first and a prospect centre.

[Enoch Root]

Dube:
D+3: 5 pts in 25 games (.200)
D+4: 16 p in 45 games (.356)
D+5: 22 p in 51 games (.431)
D+6: 45 p in 82 games (.549)

Holtz:
D+3: 4 pts in 19 games (.211)
D+4: 25 p in 68 games (.367)

To this point in Holtz' career, they have progressed identically. Unfortunately, Dube hit a wall in D+7, but until then, progressed nicely.

Can Holtz progress higher than Dube? Probably a pretty good chance. But to say they're "not even close", well, they are pretty damn close at D+4.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I'm all for opportunity when a player is underutilized. So is Conroy. That's why Conroy took Sharangovich.

That was the player offered at the time.

You don't know that Bean nixed Holtz. I suspect that Conroy was selling the team on a pick plus Mercer for Markstrom and Holtz for the retention. When retention was off the table by NJ, Conroy wanted just pick plus Mercer. NJ offered just pick plus Holtz.

Sec214 stated it was Bean who killed the deal, likely during consultation with Edwards. This was supported by other talking heads in the media. He was very consistent in stating what was asked, what was offered, and what was agreed to before the deal was killed off.

Your problem is you think Markstrom is worth a second and a prospect winger. Calgary thinks Markstorm is worth a first and a prospect centre.

I don't have a problem here. I'd take either and run to the bank laughing my ass off. Mercer is the preferred player, but Mercer is also a center and centers are harder to acquire. If New Jersey is hung up on keeping Mercer and is offering Holtz I take Holtz and be exceptionally happy. Holtz will most likely be playing for the team long after Markstrom is nothing but a memory. That is all that matters. Moving an asset that is clearly not part of the future for a player that could very well be in that mix and possibly a core player. Holtz didn't go 7th overall because of his charm and good looks. They kid has the tools, he just needs the opportunity.

I would argue you have the problem here. You have unreasonable expectations that if Conroy holds his breath long enough that teams are just going to fold and give in, making players magically available. That has not happened once in any trade Conroy has made. Sometimes you have to take the best asset available. Holtz is a very good asset, in the same way that Connor Zary is a very good asset. You build by collecting the best assets available to you. Mercer just isn't available. No top center prospect is available for a 35 year old goaltender with two more years on a $6M deal. The Flames would likely have to kick in something substantial which would probably be counter to their rebuild/retool.

[dieHARDflameZ]

If Holtz is all you are being offered for Markstrom, I am glad the Flames walked away. They are not in a position where they HAVE to move him right now anyways.

Holtz has two goals and zero assists in his last 20 games and has been limited to less than 6 minutes of ice time in some of those games. The coach in Jersey clearly isn’t liking what he is seeing, I’m not surprised the Flames came to the same conclusion.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

If Holtz is all you are being offered for Markstrom, I am glad the Flames walked away. They are not in a position where they HAVE to move him right now anyways.

Holtz has two goals and zero assists in his last 20 games and has been limited to less than 6 minutes of ice time in some of those games. The coach in Jersey clearly isn’t liking what he is seeing, I’m not surprised the Flames came to the same conclusion.

Sharangovich had 3 goals in his final 41 games of the season last year. He was sat often (more often than Holtz this year).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

That was the player offered at the time.



Sec214 stated it was Bean who killed the deal, likely during consultation with Edwards. This was supported by other talking heads in the media. He was very consistent in stating what was asked, what was offered, and what was agreed to before the deal was killed off.

He didn't say Bean nixed Holtz - he suggested it was Bean who didn't want the retetnion (or the return on the retention). So what about the no-retention deal. That seems to have caved overwhat was being offered.

Edit - about this: "I would argue you have the problem here. You have unreasonable expectations that if Conroy holds his breath long enough that teams are just going to fold and give in, making players magically available. That has not happened once in any trade Conroy has made. Sometimes you have to take the best asset available. Holtz is a very good asset, in the same way that Connor Zary is a very good asset. You build by collecting the best assets available to you. Mercer just isn't available. No top center prospect is available for a 35 year old goaltender with two more years on a $6M deal. The Flames would likely have to kick in something substantial which would probably be counter to their rebuild/retool."

I don't have any problem with what the team did. And you are projecting a lot here. What has happened in every trade is that Conroy has identified a player he wanted to come back and fill a position of need.Sharangovich, Miromanov, the two D prospects from Vancouver. He hasn't held his breath with other teams. Yet the team didn't want Holtz - without retention.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Sharangovich had 3 goals in his final 41 games of the season last year. He was sat often (more often than Holtz this year).

Holtz is one of only five Devils who have appeared in every game this season. The others include Luke Hughes, Jesper Bratt, Kevin Bahl, and Dawson Mercer.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He didn't say Bean nixed Holtz

He said Bean nixed the deal. He also said Mercer was never on the table meaning any deal that was accepted likely centered on the much rumored Holtz.