[News Roundup] CSEC/City arena deal UPDATED: Third Party Facilitator

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah, no.

What does an entertainment district have that isn’t already downtown?

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Cappy

What does an entertainment district have that isn’t already downtown?

It doesn’t have that “new car” smell.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I'd say it's about $0 dollars worth. Do you think Columbus has gained 400 million dollars because they got the blue jackets?

Over a 40 year period (expected life of the arena)? I would say it is definitely more than zero. Not as much as it would be if they had an NBA or MLB team, but being a major league city would definitely create some economic gravity over the long term. It's precisely why cities try to lure cultural elements (like sports teams) to being with or why when you go on city websites, they list such attractions when doing their elevator pitches for why you should move there, visit as a tourist, or move your business there. It puts your city name in zeitgeist. The City of Calgary website markets the Flames as a reason why Calgary is a great city and worth visiting, so there must be a benefit.

Measuring the exact value is difficult, but there has to be value there or no city would bother trying to bring in these spectacles or advertise them.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cappy

What does an entertainment district have that isn’t already downtown?

Well, first of all, the arena location isn't downtown, it's about 20 minutes by foot to anywhere approaching an entertainment district.

But moreover, there are no cinemas, very few small concert venues, and precious few bars outside of the little area with Local, National and the Met. No real sports bars, no nightclubs, and a lot between the bars that exist. It's not a destination area devoted to nighttime entertainment.

Hell, in Vegas you could have made the same argument a lot more validly BUT they still devoted a lot of money and effort into building a new entertainment area with a lot of venues closer to the arena.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, first of all, the arena location isn't downtown, it's about 20 minutes by foot to anywhere approaching an entertainment district.

But moreover, there are no cinemas, very few small concert venues, and precious few bars outside of the little area with Local, National and the Met. No real sports bars, no nightclubs, and a lot between the bars that exist. It's not a destination area devoted to nighttime entertainment.

Hell, in Vegas you could have made the same argument a lot more validly BUT they still devoted a lot of money and effort into building a new entertainment area with a lot of venues closer to the arena.

Sorry, i am including Beltline and surrounding area to the Financial Core. As is the arena and the new arena to replace it. Which has all of those things.

A new arena doesnt magically make those things occur. They just poach development from other areas of the inner city and make them less desirable during game nights (too busy) and off nights.

The fact that Vegas bought into that argument is on them.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by tkflames

Not arguing any of that...but if you are getting an event center in the first place...then make it work with a private partner...

Would we be wanting a new event center without that private partner?

Or would it be on our capital project wishlist for the 2040s or even 2050s?


I've long stated 2 conditions I'd have for significant public contribution:

1. CoC gets a limited ownership stake, that only ever really matters if the team is sold. Even if it's under fair market value, say 10% for the present deal. It would just be a balance sheet asset unless/until the team wants to move. NHL probably has rules against this, to which I say they can pound sand and change their rules.

2. A perpetual 'major event infrastructure' levy on every ticket sold. We should have been doing this since 2006.

[genetic_phreek]

Flames move to Houston. New billionaire brings NHL expansion to Calgary and builds a new arena.

I'm okay with this. Fresh start.

[CaptainCrunch]

I mean the clear question is does anyone think that a Billionaire is just going to sweep in and build his own money? Maybe in my mind the chances of that are low.


As for an expansion franchise, I doubt that the NHL would approve a new franchise here without a new arena first.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I mean the clear question is does anyone think that a Billionaire is just going to sweep in and build his own money? Maybe in my mind the chances of that are low.


As for an expansion franchise, I doubt that the NHL would approve a new franchise here without a new arena first.

You don't think a new owner would get the same 50/50 split that is being offered to Edwards?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I mean the clear question is does anyone think that a Billionaire is just going to sweep in and build his own money? Maybe in my mind the chances of that are low.


As for an expansion franchise, I doubt that the NHL would approve a new franchise here without a new arena first.

It's weird how the assumption goes to another owner financing the entire thing themselves. If we say the current deal is 50/50 (arguable), maybe it happens a lot more smoothly with another owner at 45/55 or 48/52...maybe the associated benefits (land development) are more/less/differently important to another owner.

Let's see who else might be willing to take a shot at this before considering it an existential crisis.

[Plett25]

The Flames aren't moving. At least not according to Forbes.

At $680 million the Flames are the 18th most valuable franchise, despite playing in the worst building in the league. They're sandwiched between Vegas in a brand new arena at $710M and Minnesota in a 25 year old arena at $675M. Dallas is at $720M.

Edmonton in their new arena is the 7th most valuable franchise, at $1.1 billion.

Get a new barn built in Calgary and you'll end up with a $1 billion asset. OTOH, you could buy the Flames, pay a $200 million relocation fee and for a total investment of $880 million, you can own the Houston Flames with a valuation somewhere around $720M just like the Dallas Stars.

That doesn't make any sense. Edwards, Bettman and the other owners want to turn the Flames into a billion dollar franchise, not one worth $720 million.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Plett25

The Flames aren't moving. At least not according to Forbes.

At $680 million the Flames are the 18th most valuable franchise, despite playing in the worst building in the league. They're sandwiched between Vegas in a brand new arena at $710M and Minnesota in a 25 year old arena at $675M. Dallas is at $720M.

Edmonton in their new arena is the 7th most valuable franchise, at $1.1 billion.

Get a new barn built in Calgary and you'll end up with a $1 billion asset. OTOH, you could buy the Flames, pay a $200 million relocation fee and for a total investment of $880 million, you can own the Houston Flames with a valuation somewhere around $720M just like the Dallas Stars.

That doesn't make any sense. Edwards, Bettman and the other owners want to turn the Flames into a billion dollar franchise, not one worth $720 million.

Yep this is right IMO. Although that Vegas franchise value seems very low. Is their arena deal not that sweet? I know their TV market isn’t that great.

[taxbuster]

Ah....greed.

Amazing what it does to people.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Here's my pitch....

Edmonton and Calgary can share one team. The Alberta Oilers! They can play half their games in each city!

[Jethro Choicebro]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Here's my pitch....

Edmonton and Calgary can share one team. The Alberta Oilers! They can play half their games in each city!

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by genetic_phreek

Flames move to Houston. New billionaire brings NHL expansion to Calgary and builds a new arena.

I'm okay with this. Fresh start.

Welcome to Fantasy Island....

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Plett25

The Flames aren't moving. At least not according to Forbes.

At $680 million the Flames are the 18th most valuable franchise, despite playing in the worst building in the league. They're sandwiched between Vegas in a brand new arena at $710M and Minnesota in a 25 year old arena at $675M. Dallas is at $720M.

Edmonton in their new arena is the 7th most valuable franchise, at $1.1 billion.

Get a new barn built in Calgary and you'll end up with a $1 billion asset. OTOH, you could buy the Flames, pay a $200 million relocation fee and for a total investment of $880 million, you can own the Houston Flames with a valuation somewhere around $720M just like the Dallas Stars.

That doesn't make any sense. Edwards, Bettman and the other owners want to turn the Flames into a billion dollar franchise, not one worth $720 million.

Which is also why it is posturing. This right here is correct.

If you own a franchise worth around $1B with a new arena, you're going to be willing to absorb $9-10MM in new costs even if they are ancillary BS costs.

However while I can see why, and definitely empathize with the Flames about how annoying these new costs are, I think they are simply negotiating / posturing to put an end to any new costs.

My guess is they say fine we'll take this but seriously this is our last straw and we aren't moving any more.

Edwards personal worth has just exploded, go look at CNRL stock over the last couple years. Ownership can take the extra $9-10MM the city wants and then still pocket the franchise valuation increase of $400-500MM. After paying 50% for the arena they still net a cool $100MM in increased valuation.

The play for Edwards should be to pay the $10MM then sell the team after this sucker is built. Easier said than done but with oil and gas coming back a bit (and looking good into the near to mid-term future), and Calgary being one of the few nice cities in Canada with affordable-ish housing and larger growth projections the Flames are actually a good investment.

[TheChief]

I dont live in Calgary and I only go to about 5 games on average a year but I personally like the Dome. The tickets are already high enough for a weekend game without factoring in the "new arena" price tag.



I think the Dome would be fine with a few tasteful renovations, mainly re configuring of the concourse and providing more bathrooms to patrons seems a shame to demolish it for something a little newer and fancier with less seats and more boxes. Prices out the average fan.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Sorry, i am including Beltline and surrounding area to the Financial Core. As is the arena and the new arena to replace it. Which has all of those things.

A new arena doesnt magically make those things occur. They just poach development from other areas of the inner city and make them less desirable during game nights (too busy) and off nights.

The fact that Vegas bought into that argument is on them.

The beltline doesn’t have an easily accessible entertainment district either. Very few food venues, and the bars are all way down on 17th. Have a look at the Legends Entertainment District by Chase Field and where the Suns play. It’s great.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by TheChief

I dont live in Calgary and I only go to about 5 games on average a year but I personally like the Dome. The tickets are already high enough for a weekend game without factoring in the "new arena" price tag.



I think the Dome would be fine with a few tasteful renovations, mainly re configuring of the concourse and providing more bathrooms to patrons seems a shame to demolish it for something a little newer and fancier with less seats and more boxes. Prices out the average fan.

They already put lipstick on the pig a couple of times already. Can't really do much more.