[News Roundup] CSEC/City arena deal UPDATED: Third Party Facilitator

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Locke

I wonder if there any IT guys on CP that have ever had experience with a client or partner changing the parameters of a project on the fly?

My understanding is that everyone is a huge fan of moving goalposts. The stationary ones are just too easy to hit.

Happens all the time, except they never tell IT that the change happened until a day before that portion of the project is supposed to be done.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by 442scotty

Both parties should go back to the original 50/50 cost split and move on. The biggest loser is the city if this doesn’t proceed. Just one more reason not to go downtown with no arena/entertainment district. Oh, but I forgot! We can go to the LIBRARY! Oh I can’t stand the excitement!

The entire downtown is an entertainment district. A new arena doesn't add anything that wasn't already somewhere else in the city.

If your only reason for coming downtown is to crush pizza 73 and some beers at the flames game, then you are missing out on the best part of the city

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cappy

The entire downtown is an entertainment district. A new arena doesn't add anything that wasn't already somewhere else in the city.

If your only reason for coming downtown is to crush pizza 73 and some beers at the flames game, then you are missing out on the best part of the city

Yeah, no.

[powderjunkie]

I still think the ideal location would be 2 blocks further north than currently planned - between 11 Ave and the CP tracks (Remington lot, that is/has been paved for Stampede parking as part of this deal).

Design an outdoor concourse that crosses the CP tracks and it would be right across the street from Bell NMC.

1 block from two existing parkades. 2 blocks to red and blue lines. 1 block to green line. Lots of parking to the south.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Yes, but the CSEC is trying to get more than that. You're solutioning for when both parties are negotiating and acting in good faith, but what is your solution when one party is looking for any way out of the deal?

CSEC wanting any way out of the deal is a perception at best. Between the real estate deals, improved revenue opportunities from boxes etc. and franchise value increase, this is a net positive deal for the Owners. The project, like any other private funded project, just needs to maintain their IRR. If anyone is under the misconception that the flames are building this arena out of the goodness of their hearts, they are sorely mistaken. Likewise if anyone believes that the city is better off not getting a private enterprise to fund part of the CAPEX, they are sorely mistaken.

The public here is just being used as a bunch of pawns to squeeze and extra 10M or an extra bit of project pork out of the other side.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by tkflames

CSEC wanting any way out of the deal is a perception at best. Between the real estate deals, improved revenue opportunities from boxes etc. and franchise value increase, this is a net positive deal for the Owners. The project, like any other private funded project, just needs to maintain their IRR. If anyone is under the misconception that the flames are building this arena out of the goodness of their hearts, they are sorely mistaken. Likewise if anyone believes that the city is better off not getting a private enterprise to fund part of the CAPEX, they are sorely mistaken.

The public here is just being used as a bunch of pawns to squeeze and extra 10M or an extra bit of project pork out of the other side.

From a public standpoint, how much do we really need a new arena? IMO the opportunity cost boils down to:

A more polished experience and maybe ~5 more concerts per year

vs.

A brand new field house

vs.

Other public infrastructure

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

From a public standpoint, how much do we really need a new arena? IMO the opportunity cost boils down to:

A more polished experience and maybe ~5 more concerts per year

vs.

A brand new field house

vs.

Other public infrastructure

I honestly think the difference and perception will be maintaining a big city echelon that is spoken in the same breath as Toronto and Vancouver, to becoming something like Regina of second tier cities in the country.

[BagoPucks]

We are already a second tier city. The question is are we moving up or not?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Yoho

I honestly think the difference and perception will be maintaining a big city echelon that is spoken in the same breath as Toronto and Vancouver, to becoming something like Regina of second tier cities in the country.

I think that is a legitimate concern, but one that is very difficult to put a value on. How much economic impact does perception of a city have? I wonder if there are any studies that shed light on that kind of thing.

Professional sports and other attractions that an arena would host gives cities notoriety and attention, and how much of that gives the city gravity when it comes to luring business and residents? I don't know the answer to that, but I would think it is a factor. Is it worth $400 million over the next 30-40 years? My gut says yes, probably, but is there a way of calculating it?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Yoho

I honestly think the difference and perception will be maintaining a big city echelon that is spoken in the same breath as Toronto and Vancouver, to becoming something like Regina of second tier cities in the country.

How differently do we (or maybe better would be unbiased observers) view Edmonton with their new arena vs. their old one?

How differently do we view Winnipeg with and without and with again the Jets + building?

QC has a building but no team...with or without either IMO it is a very nice smaller city, like Halifax.

If OTT opened a shiny new building downtown, would it significantly enhance the city's identity?

If we plunk a new arena and NHL team into Sask or Regina, do they suddenly tier up?


TOR, MTL, and VAN are almost certainly always going to be a different tier (bigger, not necessarily better), and an arena would have nearly nothing to do with us joining it.

United Centre in Chicago is only 11 years younger than the Saddledome. Is Chicago at risk of a downgrade?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I think that is a legitimate concern, but one that is very difficult to put a value on. How much economic impact does perception of a city have? I wonder if there are any studies that shed light on that kind of thing.

Professional sports and other attractions that an arena would host gives cities notoriety and attention, and how much of that gives the city gravity when it comes to luring business and residents? I don't know the answer to that, but I would think it is a factor. Is it worth $400 million over the next 30-40 years? My gut says yes, probably, but is there a way of calculating it?

I'd say it's about $0 dollars worth. Do you think Columbus has gained 400 million dollars because they got the blue jackets?

[dino7c]

just get Mexico to pay for it

[Locke]

Originally Posted by dino7c

just get Mexico to pay for it

While they're in the festive Christmas spirit.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Calgary's mayor (any mayor, not Gondek specifically) has very little power to do anything unilaterally. Council can overrule recommendations from Administration, but the mayor is only one vote out of 15 on Council, and I don't think this particular issue went to a Council vote anyway. Bunk probably knows way more than I do, so let's see what he says about this.

I’m a 26-year retired (my own decision) city councillor and this is all correct. It’s a pet peeve that people generally think mayors have lots of power; they have no more decision-making authority than any other council member.

[djsFlames]

Does Canada have a Mexico that can pay for it.

The eskimos of Greenland?

Murray doing his best scrooge impersonation for the holidays I see.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by BagoPucks

We are already a second tier city. The question is are we moving up or not?

Maybe we have to move Calgary to Houston.

[djsFlames]

Hous-Gary.

[Gemnoble]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I'd say it's about $0 dollars worth. Do you think Columbus has gained 400 million dollars because they got the blue jackets?

I think Columbus benefits from having a pro sports team, you aren't thinking on this very fairly or clearly.

I'm very confident in thinking that without its sports teams Detroit would collapse into a border crossing. I've been to the city and apart from easy travel to Canada and sports teams it really doesn't have much other then the Henry Ford museum as a reason to visit and it's already on the verge of collapse.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Maybe we have to move Calgary to Houston.

Its already happening...but at least we are saving the world!

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

From a public standpoint, how much do we really need a new arena? IMO the opportunity cost boils down to:

A more polished experience and maybe ~5 more concerts per year

vs.

A brand new field house

vs.

Other public infrastructure

Not arguing any of that...but if you are getting an event center in the first place...then make it work with a private partner...