[Trade] Sens trade Lazar and Kostka to the Flames for a 2nd + Jokipakka

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

A bit late to the party, though I think some of you are treating a 2nd round pick as an unknown. The organization has a rough idea of where they will be drafting and the players available at those spots. I am also pretty sure our GM has a pretty good idea of what this pick will be worth in a trade. In that case the pro scouts will evaluate each scenario of trading the player they would have picked for Lazar. The same way they did with the Hamilton trade, they decided that the player is better than who they(not Ottawa) would have been targeting.

In that case, I think its a win-win for both teams, so I voted neutral. In the future it will most likely be a swap that will neither make nor break either team.

I agree, the Flames definitely would have had a short list of players they thought they could take with that 2nd. Moreover, the Flames would also have a good idea of what RH RWers were available. Turning that pick into a RH RW was a priority, after a process of due diligence the Flames decided this was the best option.

I, however, remain skeptical that Lazar will be a long term solution. That said, I would be even more skeptical of the player drafted with that pick.

Time will tell. I am just happy we have something to talk about after the deadline

[GoJetsGo]

Pretty funny hearing an Oiler fan talk about the importance of 2nd round picks.

Oil Stain be staining

[Vox]

A bit of useless analysis.

In the past 5 drafts, the Flames picked:
35 Times (average)
6 First round (+1 from average)
7 Second round (+2 from average)
This included trading a 1st and two 2nds for Dougie Hamilton.

In the previous 5 drafts, the Flames picked:
29 Times (-6 from average)
4 First round (-1 from average)
3 Second Round (-2 from average)

In recent years the Flames have a marked increase in acquiring more picks and trading UP for higher picks, compared to previous years where they divested picks and traded down for lower picks. And the high picks they have traded have been for young prospects, not older vets. This supports Treliving’s comments that the Flames are acquiring young assets and “adding bullets to the chamber”. Using a 2nd for Lazar seems pretty reasonable in this methodology. Young prospect that still counts as a bullet in the chamber. The Flames are doing exactly what they should be doing. They are adding bullets from all sorts of sources, including the draft.

[transplant99]

The more I read and hear about what happened to him in Ottawa the more he reminds me of Eric Nystrom. If that's his upside...then this deal is really no good. It's a big "if" for sure but there is some similarity IMO.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

I don't agree that you have to overpay for average third liners in free agency. Maybe for 2/3rd line tweeners.

Average third liners aren't usually in demand and I think you see some pretty good bargains on these types every year.

We are talking about a team's 8th or 9th best forward here. Your Kris Versteegs.

Kris Versteeg is a 1 year stop gap player. Sometimes they work out, often they don't. Given a choice between developing your own top 9 forward, that can be part of your team for multiple seasons, our dumpster diving for free agent bargains to fill gaps - I think the preferred choice is obvious.
Frankly I'm surprised you are trying to argue otherwise.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Kris Versteeg is a 1 year stop gap player. Sometimes they work out, often they don't. Given a choice between developing your own top 9 forward, that can be part of your team for multiple seasons, our dumpster diving for free agent bargains to fill gaps - I think the preferred choice is obvious.
Frankly I'm surprised you are trying to argue otherwise.

But are you honestly though?

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by sketchyt

That's nine players. LOL. 240 players were taken. A 3.75% hit rate for those players to become 20 goal scorers. That % may increase, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

It would seem to me if you can get a 21 year old Lance Bouma with a second round pick making a minimal salary, you would think it'd be considered a win.

Yeah that's nice.

Now track for me all of the returns GMs got in that time for trading a second round pick.

Generally a second round pick can fetch a pretty decent player in return.

Sutter used to pull that off with regularity. Rene Bourque, now there's a great trade for a second round pick.

I don't know why you'd want to set the bar at Lance Bouma as a win. You can trade for a Lance Bouma tomorrow with a 6th rounder.

You'd think you would set a decently high bar for expected return on a second rounder. Why are you setting the standard so low?

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

You'd think you would set a decently high bar for expected return on a second rounder. Why are you setting the standard so low?

Because this is widely viewed as a poor draft.

Besides, it's a calculated gamble. We've listened to Treliving talk at length on how they've scouted Lazar and feel that the value here is worth the risk.

Remember, you can use a 2nd round pick as part to land a Dougie Hamilton... but you can also use it, in part, to land a Griffin Reinhart. There are no guarantees.

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Yeah that's nice.

Now track for me all of the returns GMs got in that time for trading a second round pick.

Generally a second round pick can fetch a pretty decent player in return.

Sutter used to pull that off with regularity. Rene Bourque, now there's a great trade for a second round pick.

I don't know why you'd want to set the bar at Lance Bouma as a win. You can trade for a Lance Bouma tomorrow with a 6th rounder.

You'd think you would set a decently high bar for expected return on a second rounder. Why are you setting the standard so low?

[The Professor]

Hey just curious Oil Stain, is your signature meant to be making fun? Because it seems like it's pretty likely to be true. I keep reading it and thinking... yeah, I think so.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Kris Versteeg is a 1 year stop gap player. Sometimes they work out, often they don't. Given a choice between developing your own top 9 forward, that can be part of your team for multiple seasons, our dumpster diving for free agent bargains to fill gaps - I think the preferred choice is obvious.
Frankly I'm surprised you are trying to argue otherwise.

Of course it's good if the player turns out. It's worth it if he becomes an effective player that you can't acquire with a second round pick.

If in his prime he is a player that isn't worth a second round pick (ie average or worse third liner) then the trade wasn't worth it.

Do you think if he ends up as a Lance Bouma that this trade is a win for the Flames?

[CalgaryFan1988]

Maybe oil stain is right?

Why trade a second for a guy like Lazar, when you can combine it with a first and get an established player. Like a Griffin Reinhart for instance.

Can't wait for the Oilers to end their season so their fans can stop pretending they know more than other teams fans.

[JiriHrdina]

If he ends up being old Bouma than yes. Why are you talking about Boums so much?

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Yeah that's nice.

Now track for me all of the returns GMs got in that time for trading a second round pick.

Generally a second round pick can fetch a pretty decent player in return.

Sutter used to pull that off with regularity. Rene Bourque, now there's a great trade for a second round pick.

I don't know why you'd want to set the bar at Lance Bouma as a win. You can trade for a Lance Bouma tomorrow with a 6th rounder.

You'd think you would set a decently high bar for expected return on a second rounder. Why are you setting the standard so low?

ummm you guys traded your 2nd rounder for a GM that was fired...

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Sutter used to pull that off with regularity. Rene Bourque, now there's a great trade for a second round pick.

Was Rene Bourque, the oft-injured winger, considered a great trade at the time for Calgary or did it become a great trade after? Could only imagine what your thoughts were days after the trade, and I doubt it was being labelled as great.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Because this is widely viewed as a poor draft.

Besides, it's a calculated gamble. We've listened to Treliving talk at length on how they've scouted Lazar and feel that the value here is worth the risk.

Remember, you can use a 2nd round pick as part to land a Dougie Hamilton... but you can also use it, in part, to land a Griffin Reinhart. There are no guarantees.

I'm not sure why you are getting so defensive. I didn't say anywhere that I thought it was a bad trade.

I just don't agree with some posters that basically say that as long as Lazar is a half decent 4th liner then it's a win for the Flames.

I don't know what Lazar will become but when you give up a second rounder as a GM you are expecting that player to fit into the top half of your roster eventually.

Is that not a fair thing to say about trading a second rounder?

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

I'm not sure why you are getting so defensive. I didn't say anywhere that I thought it was a bad trade.

I just don't agree with some posters that basically say that as long as Lazar is a half decent 4th liner then it's a win for the Flames.

I don't know what Lazar will become but when you give up a second rounder as a GM you are expecting that player to fit into the top half of your roster eventually.

Is that not a fair things to say about trading a second rounder?

I don't see anyone getting defensive... I see them pointing out how you're failing to make a point and moving the goal-posts.

Can you quote anyone that said "half way decent 4th liner = win"?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I don't see anyone getting defensive... I see them pointing out how you're failing to make a point and moving the goal-posts.

Can you quote anyone that said "half way decent 4th liner = win"?

because.. LANCE BOUMA!

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

because.. LANCE BOUMA!

[18YrOldSamBennett]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

because.. LANCE BOUMA!

21 year old Lance Bouma... the one who forechecked had a little bit of a scoring touch etc.

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