Would you support Rainbow on Hockey Unis for Sochi?

[strombad]

Originally Posted by korzym12

Hatred towards Christians is not defense it's discrimination which gays are guilty of.

Again, maybe if you had morals you'd be able to put forth an argument for gays.

Do unto others as you'd have done to yourself.

I know your frustrated right now but it's true. You don't insult the people whom you're trying to convince. Maybe if you said "gays should be respected, Christians should be respected, etc" But you're saying it's ok to discriminate against Christians because they have a different view.

So if a Christian applies the same rules, because gays have different views from Christians - according to your moral code, Christians would have the right to "go after" gays - just because they disagree with them.

Again, I accept your apology. Get some sleep, clear your mind, and try to present an argument that makes sense.

Interesting my boy.
Kind of like how you discriminate against gay people and then ask that people not discriminate against you?

Hypocrites are the most fun people.
Just admit one thing, ONE THING:
You have no idea that there is a difference between being discriminated against because of something in your DNA, and being discriminated against for something you choose?
Discrimination in all senses is wrong, and you're right, it's terrible that people discriminate against Christians. But you're asking they be fair while you attack them.

Eventually, you'll get it.
Now come to bed sweetie, I've warmed it up for you, but all this gay-hating isn't a turn on.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Yes they are discriminated against, I have never said they weren't. What should be done, I have said it many times in this thread. We need to change the way people think, hate is learned behaviour. No one is born a bigot, they become it.

Alberta_Beef, I agree with you on this point. However, how do you change the way people think? I think you'll agree with me that the answer is education. With the law that Russia has passed, Russia is essentially banning the education of children that LGBT are equals. It is entrenching the discrimination rather than working to eliminate it. Do you see this as problematic?

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by korzym12

Do unto others as you'd have done to yourself.

First you say gays shouldn't be judged.

Then you say ok to judge people.

When you say things like that, it confirms that gays want more rights than other citizens. I have freedom of speech, and I have freedom of practicing my religion. Gays can be respected, but engaging in disgusting sexual acts is filth - expecting me to adopt your opinion on the matter is outrageous in light of all our laws. That's what this is about, if I find gay sex acts disgusting and barbaric - then I'm somehow offending gays. But if I follow the law and do them no harm - you face discrimination from gays and get called a "bigot". Being called that is on the same level as a little kid saying he's going to "beat you up", I can't take that verbal "assault" seriously.

I personally find straight sex disgusting. If I was to become Prime Minister and banned "straight propaganda" to children, would that be ok?

[the2bears]

Are there limits to what freedom of religion allows and provides for? Certainly, as there are with all rights.

One such limit is that freedom of religion cannot (or should not) allow for limiting others' rights. If I am against a religion that attempts to limit others' rights, then I claim this is not in any way being anti-religious, as it is against a behaviour that is not part of what is protected in freedom of religion. Limiting others' rights was definitely not part of JC's teachings, so it's really not part of the religion but rather an added on manifestation of the organizations around the teachings.

The big mistake made, maybe made on purpose, is to confuse bigots as a protected group. The bigotry is not part of the religion, nor protected by the shield of religion - it's not all encompassing and claiming affiliation with a church does not give a person a blank check to do whatever they please.

Stop confusing anti-bigotry with anti-religion. They're very different things.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Alberta_Beef, I agree with you on this point. However, how do you change the way people think? I think you'll agree with me that the answer is education. With the law that Russia has passed, Russia is essentially banning the education of children that LGBT are equals. It is entrenching the discrimination rather than working to eliminate it. Do you see this as problematic?

I feel like i am going in circles here sometimes. I have said that I disagree with the law, but I do not believe change can/should be forced without it making things worse.

I don't know the best way to educate them, but until they (as a society) are willing to change all efforts to create change are futile. People won't change until they want to.

Right or wrong until there is a desire to progress nothing will change. It might not be what people want to hear but it is the cold hard truth.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I feel like i am going in circles here sometimes. I have said that I disagree with the law, but I do not believe change can/should be forced without it making things worse.

I don't know the best way to educate them, but until they (as a society) are willing to change all efforts to create change are futile. People won't change until they want to.

Right or wrong until there is a desire to progress nothing will change. It might not be what people want to hear but it is the cold hard truth.

"During the civil rights movement, U.S. blacks fought for their equal rights by staging peaceful protests, which ultimately led to the landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964. In Russia, however, peaceful protests for LGBT equal rights, including one-man pickets, are already being prosecuted for supposedly propagandizing LGBT lifestyles to minors."

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinio...ia/485634.html

The Russian government has essentially legislated away the ability for those to dissent with this law. If Russians can't stand up against this law, who will? Has silence ever made a change in society?

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

"During the civil rights movement, U.S. blacks fought for their equal rights by staging peaceful protests, which ultimately led to the landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964. In Russia, however, peaceful protests for LGBT equal rights, including one-man pickets, are already being prosecuted for supposedly propagandizing LGBT lifestyles to minors."

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinio...ia/485634.html

The Russian government has essentially legislated away the ability for those to dissent with this law. If Russians can't stand up against this law, who will? Has silence ever made a change in society?

You bring up the civil rights bill, but you have to keep in mind that it took the US about 100 years from the time the slaves were freed to them passing that Civil Rights Bill. And even then there were large amounts of violence in areas that were not ready for the change.

During that fight many blacks were imprisoned for breaking stupid laws. Take Mrs. Rosa Parks for example, she was charged and convicted for refusing to give up her seat for a white man, what is lesser known is she was the 3rd black woman in Montgomery Alabama arrested and convicted of violating the segregation laws but the black activists didn't fight hard for them because they didn't feel those women would gain any white support.

The Russians will need people willing to go to jail for what they think is right. They will need to have the RIGHT person go to jail for what they think is right. And even then it will be a long and ugly fight.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I think 1 thing is being lost here.

Not every culture embraces the same beliefs. If the overwhelming majority of people in a culture believe something is wrong who are we to argue with that?

The biggest problem I have about our North American culture is the sheer intolerance for anyone who shares different beliefs. It's more or less our way or its wrong, then we preach that intolerance is wrong.

Hilarious that this was your second post in this thread and the amount of back peddling you've done in this thread is quite funny to read. You contradict yourself numerous times and I honestly have no idea what your real point is in this thread. Your posts are all over the map. I read all 54 posts of yours in this thread and still have no idea idea what your true point is. It's changed a bunch of times in this thread and I will not be afraid to assume you're a closet homophobe. It's the only thing that makes sense to me as to why you keep defending Russian's bigotry.

[Cwolf]

No

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

This is the most pathetic thing ive ever read on this board. White knighting on this type of thing is just as bad as starting the argument in the first place. dont even acknowlege it with a response. How did religion ever get allowed to become a topic of discussion here? Are the mods sleeping? Embarrassing.

The mods are not sleeping. We've chosen to allow the conversation to continue because shutting down conversations does nothing to further the issue. Discussion promotes change.

[Poe969]

If this is mostly about religion now, shouldn't it be moved to the off topic forum along with the trophy hunting thread? I mean we're hardly talking hockey in these threads anymore

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Poe969

If this is mostly about religion now, shouldn't it be moved to the off topic forum along with the trophy hunting thread? I mean we're hardly talking hockey in these threads anymore

It's an evolving discussion related to the original question posed at the beginning of the thread. The only thing off-topic about it is posts like yours. Feel free not to read or contribute if the thread placement bothers you.

[Poe969]

well I'm just relating to a previous post. It was an evolving statement from a previous post so it too has relevance to this thread. If we're going to let threads "evolve" into any topic and not keep them on track then why have an off topic forum? I came in because I thought it would be relevant to hockey talk instead of religion. I guess we can just let this thread evolve into anything as long as it started about something hockey related

[korzym12]

Originally Posted by polak

You're acting like this is a "chicken or the egg" kind of situation when it's not. The LGBT right supporters aren't coming after Christians. They're just defending themselves from persecution.

Take out the anti-gay rhetoric from Christianity and no one here would be "discriminating" against Christians.

When you go to court to defend yourself against charges, you don't present an argument against a third party who had nothing to do with pressing charges against you. In other words you'd focus on the allegations and "disprove" them, if you could. Apparently you can't so you attack Christians with YOUR hatred.

I accept your apology.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Except I have seen other people make the comparisons before and quite frankly it disgusts me.

We have had posters compare gay rights to the Holocaust, I know people that compare it to blacks that fight for their freedom. And while the fight for gay equality is important, it is not nearly at the same level and comparing them makes the real fights for HUMAN RIGHTS.

I really don't care what some bible thumper thinks to be quite honest, I am just tired of people comparing fighting for the right to be married and not be bullied to people that were murdered en masse or sold like farm animals. It is not comparable.

It is not comparable and anyone that compares them should be embarrassed.

You do know that one of the groups of people targeted in Nazi Germany were homosexuals right? Seriously, your ignorance is unbelievable.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Hilarious that this was your second post in this thread and the amount of back peddling you've done in this thread is quite funny to read. You contradict yourself numerous times and I honestly have no idea what your real point is in this thread. Your posts are all over the map. I read all 54 posts of yours in this thread and still have no idea idea what your true point is. It's changed a bunch of times in this thread ...

On the plus side, Beef's changing opinion could be considered a victory of the discusion. Much like the entire concept of Movember with regards to men's health, starting the discussion is sometimes the biggest step people can take toward learning and evolving their thinking.

I know that I have been doing a lot more side-reading on this topic and am more aware of situation in Russia with the pending Olympics coming up than I was without the discussion. I can now say that I would be very happy to support Canada in taking action against the direction that Russia is going (not only with the LGBT issue but also with Russia's abuse of workers to build this Olympics).

[Poe969]

At least we can all agree that hockey was the only bright spot of the Holocaust...

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Poe969

well I'm just relating to a previous post. It was an evolving statement from a previous post so it too has relevance to this thread. If we're going to let threads "evolve" into any topic and not keep them on track then why have an off topic forum? I came in because I thought it would be relevant to hockey talk instead of religion. I guess we can just let this thread evolve into anything as long as it started about something hockey related

Did you read anything? The only reason religion is being brought up is in reference to gay rights. Which was the topic of the thread, being that a rainbow patch would support gay rights. Now go pat yourself on the back somewhere else.

[Poe969]

Yes, but my question related to a previous post which referanced religion which referenced gay writes which pretained to hockey!

My point is that if you want to talk about things that you have to stretch to relate to hockey, maybe do so in a thread that is in the off topic forum.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Yes, but my question related to a previous post which referanced religion which referenced gay writes which pretained to hockey!

My point is that if you want to talk about things that you have to stretch to relate to hockey, maybe do so in a thread that is in the off topic forum.

My point is that if you have a problem with a thread, feel free to stop uncontrollably clicking on it like an excitable schoolgirl. The end.

You could have, you know, made a comment about hockey.

Quit being a precious boy and either ignore the thread or contribute in a way that gets us back to an area of discussion you'd like.