getting a little tired of the crack/meth heads

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Deviaant

You really think it’s an unorganized group of hobos terrorizing our ctrain stations? Maybe address the ultra violent gangs? You think you are not gonna take that first hit of meth with a knife to your throat? Doubt you are gonna say no to that.

Go walk down Dermot Baldwin way and see if you escape that area without a new meth addiction. Explain to me how a newly homeless person or the working poor should just cross that area to access some simple services they need to survive. It’s like crossing no man’s land. You can’t even access the di without having to pass through that. The police don’t go there to clean anything up. How do you avoid the gangs and drugs when they literally surround the social supports you need to survive?

Kidnapping and forced confinement is not the answer here. Police presence and easy safe access to social services will go a longer way than shipping them out of your sight.

Sounds like maybe you work with the homeless? Sometimes it's hard to see the forest through the trees.

At this point, dude, nobody gives a #### about these people's problems since they're causing nothing but problems for us. Police presence shuffles the problem somewhere else and that's it. It solves absolutely nothing and it's ridiculously naïve to think otherwise. We've been trying easy safe access to social services forever and this problem gets worse and worse.

Time for a new approach.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Deviaant

The street outside the drop in shelter. You know that’s a pretty violent gang area right? Ran by a gang called family first. What else would you like to know?

I'm aware... you're suggesting that if I were to walk down that street from one end to the other by the time I'm done I will be newly addicted to meth?

Are... is there something seriously wrong with your brain?

[Monahammer]

Kidnapping and forced confinement? I am talking about giving them all 1 room homes of their own. They just so happen to be super far away from other people, with little ability to cogently return to those other people until you've dramatically altered your own situation.

And yes, CHL, it is pretty much that. But with the added benefit of also giving them a whole bunch of free stuff to make the best of shipping them out.

The reality as I see it is that the scales have tipped towards being too societally dangerous. These people do deserve our help, but we don't all deserve massive suffering just for wanting to help them.

To me it was the vancouver story that pushed me over the edge. The guy got stabbed by a psycho in front of his 3 year old, who watched her father die, just for asking someone not to ####ing vape and blow the smoke in his kid's face. There's a point we're going to get to where solutions being presented are far worse than shipping people out of town.

[Deviaant]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I'm aware... you're suggesting that if I were to walk down that street from one end to the other by the time I'm done I will be newly addicted to meth?

Are... is there something seriously wrong with your brain?

Well you might be lucky. Doubt I you escape the area with out a physical confrontation though.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Deviaant

Well you might be lucky. Doubt I you escape the area with out a physical confrontation though.

I don't doubt that, either. So why the #### do we accept that in our city?!?! lol, guy.

[Deviaant]

I’m just saying maybe we should clean that area up. Sure move them elsewhere. Let people access the social supports they need. Blocking those vital supports does nothing but make the problem worse.

Not am I saying we should accept this in our city. I’m saying shipping people out to 1 room buildings or whatever might kinda work but I think cleaning up our gang problem might be more effective.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Deviaant

Well you might be lucky. Doubt I you escape the area with out a physical confrontation though.

I have a buddy who lives in Arris by Bosa on the corner of 4st and 5ave SE so I'm actually there a decent amount, and I've never had a physical confrontation. It's pretty sketchy, though.

But the notion that you have to be "lucky" to not get addicted to methamphetamines just by walking down a street is utterly window-licking insane.

[Deviaant]

Window licking insane. Well May would disagree with you and it’s not my responsibility to convince you. Go ask a cop what they found there on the last clean up. It was on global news I believe. It was a while ago.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

OK dude, you go ahead and live in your world where people get addicted to meth by taking a jaunty stroll through the bad part of town... Although I have no idea who the "May" you're referring to is.

[PsYcNeT]

Is "getting addicted to meth while strolling" the Canadian equivalent to "cops going into a seizure when someone shows them a picture of fentanyl"

[Russic]

This thread is an interesting example of (what I see as) the main problem. In order to solve this issue, people with severe problems need to be seen as legitimate people first. We don't do that though. This thread has floated the ideas like shipping them out and letting them Mad Max it alongside the citizens of Airdrie, or indefinitely incarcerating them. Hell, the word "people" was put in quotation marks.

I'm not actually arguing anybody's position here, it's frightening out there and we have a reason to be angry. What I will say though is that almost none of these ideas are new, and none of it has ever worked.

I'm definitely not saying that these people are beyond saving, but I will say the best investment we can make is probably in children and families today so that the kids who are destined to be on the streets in 15-20 years don't get there. The people that are struggling now aren't hopeless, but given societies general attitude towards them, they don't have much of a shot. They need a ton of resources, and it's clear most don't want to give it to them.

We're probably going to have to tough this wave out for another decade, but if we don't take actionable strides to help children struggling with poverty and trauma today, then we'll just run head-first into the next wave.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Russic

This thread is an interesting example of (what I see as) the main problem. In order to solve this issue, people with severe problems need to be seen as legitimate people first. We don't do that though. This thread has floated the ideas like shipping them out and letting them Mad Max it alongside the citizens of Airdrie, or indefinitely incarcerating them. Hell, the word "people" was put in quotation marks.

I'm not actually arguing anybody's position here, it's frightening out there and we have a reason to be angry. What I will say though is that almost none of these ideas are new, and none of it has ever worked.

I'm definitely not saying that these people are beyond saving, but I will say the best investment we can make is probably in children and families today so that the kids who are destined to be on the streets in 15-20 years don't get there. The people that are struggling now aren't hopeless, but given societies general attitude towards them, they don't have much of a shot. They need a ton of resources, and it's clear most don't want to give it to them.

We're probably going to have to tough this wave out for another decade, but if we don't take actionable strides to help children struggling with poverty and trauma today, then we'll just run head-first into the next wave.

This is a bad take and a bad interpretation of everything that has been said.

As for the bolded, how could you come to that conclusion? You don't think we're aware that it would be incredibly expensive to house and care for people during rehabilitation? I want to be taxed more to pay for this.

But Russic, many of these people have given up much of their humanity and are singularly focused on feeding their addictions. These aren't your buddies who maybe snorted a couple lines on a Friday and sobered up for work on Monday. We're talking about people jumping on cars, stabbing people on their lunch break, killing fathers, etc. I think you're portraying those of us who are actually looking at solutions - and are willing to pay for them - in way too negative of a light.

I also recognize that some people are beyond help. I've known them and been there when we've laid them to rest. For those, yes, let's get them out of Calgary and keep them out.

"Investment in families." Okay, to whom do I make out the cheque? What does that even mean? I respect you and your takes and I consider you a hero for real (that wolf thing was literally a selfless act of heroism and you're on a pedestal in my mind forever because of it), but I don't think you've really digested what some of us have been saying.

[calgarywinning]

Well right now the Mayor is going to move the people off the public LRT line presumably by bylaw peace officers and criminal charges for the more serious to feed into the Alberta Courts systems which won't be able to handle them. They will move elsewhere, into the surrounding communities. So the current plan is costly and will not work.

We probably need a database of the people along the line so we get a number or quantity of people who are homeless, addicted to drugs, drug dealers, convicted of violent crimes previous. Once you quantitate you can make a plan.

Like if we have 40 extra officers on top of let's say 10 extra officers previous that's 2.75 - 3 million a year in wages approx. You could turn this into a nice reward for people who rehabilitate in terms of housing, counselling and support.

Maybe the violent ones who do commit crimes on the C-train such as yelling and screaming, should be removed from society on account of the definition of assault under the criminal code of Canada. The problem is the quantity of people. Which leads to prison reform.

The idea of mad max and outside airdrie is typically where prisons are put. I think prisons for these drugs should focus on not removing the substance from them physically so they can be slowly de-toxed, then there should be counselling and support and then there should be prep for return to society and even funding for those that have been successful.

In many ways dealing with the problem will clear the future generations from exposure to highly addictive substance abuse. Of course; educating children and really, children that live in poverty etc is a great place to strike as well. But I think you can't have it all, or all at once. So maybe we should focus on carbon tax.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

Well right now the Mayor is going to move the people off the public LRT line presumably by bylaw peace officers and criminal charges for the more serious to feed into the Alberta Courts systems which won't be able to handle them. They will move elsewhere, into the surrounding communities. So the current plan is costly and will not work.

We probably need a database of the people along the line so we get a number or quantity of people who are homeless, addicted to drugs, drug dealers, convicted of violent crimes previous. Once you quantitate you can make a plan.

Like if we have 40 extra officers on top of let's say 10 extra officers previous that's 2.75 - 3 million a year in wages approx. You could turn this into a nice reward for people who rehabilitate in terms of housing, counselling and support.

Maybe the violent ones who do commit crimes on the C-train such as yelling and screaming, should be removed from society on account of the definition of assault under the criminal code of Canada. The problem is the quantity of people. Which leads to prison reform.

The idea of mad max and outside airdrie is typically where prisons are put. I think prisons for these drugs should focus on not removing the substance from them physically so they can be slowly de-toxed, then there should be counselling and support and then there should be prep for return to society and even funding for those that have been successful.

In many ways dealing with the problem will clear the future generations from exposure to highly addictive substance abuse. Of course; educating children and really, children that live in poverty etc is a great place to strike as well. But I think you can't have it all, or all at once. So maybe we should focus on carbon tax.

I also find some of the language in this thread to be getting pretty appalling.

That being said, throwing money at people with major drug addiction and mental health issues in the form of a "reward" is not likely to work either. They've tried that a lot in Vancouver with free housing. Yes, it's great to give people a roof over the head and way out of the cold. However, this hasn't been shown to actually help anyone with their problems. On top of that, the housing quickly degrades into prostitution, crime, and drug dens where people get taken advantage of, physically assaulted, sexually exploited/abused, etc...You also end up with a lot of people just overdosing in isolation in their rooms, instead of in public, so free housing may not save lives.

We already have a model that works, and that's Portugal's. That doesn't involve bribery or letting people roam free. In Portugal it's doctors and health panel members who can mandatory stays in drug treatment facilities. Currently, it seems as though lawmakers are too concerned with denying anyone their liberty and other rights, even if its in their best interest.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Man, that is awful. What a terrible choice it must be to face between staying in a place like that or staying on the streets in the winter. My heart really goes out to the people facing that who just want somewhere safe and warm to rest.

I live in downtown and I've seen homeless people try to sleep and camp just about anywhere that is not inside the drop in center.

Many times I've been to the Superstore in Arris and homeless are curled up on the bottom floor of the parkade in the corners.

Then when you go shopping, someone pulls the fire alarm so the exits open and they can make a break for it with their stolen goods.

[calgarywinning]

Originally Posted by blankall

I also find some of the language in this thread to be getting pretty appalling.

That being said, throwing money at people with major drug addiction and mental health issues in the form of a "reward" is not likely to work either. They've tried that a lot in Vancouver with free housing. Yes, it's great to give people a roof over the head and way out of the cold. However, this hasn't been shown to actually help anyone with their problems. On top of that, the housing quickly degrades into prostitution, crime, and drug dens where people get taken advantage of, physically assaulted, sexually exploited/abused, etc...You also end up with a lot of people just overdosing in isolation in their rooms, instead of in public, so free housing may not save lives.

We already have a model that works, and that's Portugal's. That doesn't involve bribery or letting people roam free. In Portugal it's doctors and health panel members who can mandatory stays in drug treatment facilities. Currently, it seems as though lawmakers are too concerned with denying anyone their liberty and other rights, even if its in their best interest.

blank-GPT most of the physical universe operates on a reward system. Probably why they are addicted to life disabling drugs.

Most people go to school; contribute to society; work hard for rewards which a primary driving force. Those channels create a society.

One of my thoughts was using the money to enforce or push people off the train could be used to help a demographic that wanted a way out. That would be my focus.

However, your suggestion of mandatory stays in drug facilities and how they do it in Portugal is a great addition to a solution. Especially, when some people are saying that criminality and criminal offence isn't the solution or locking people up.

It's the answer, especially those that know and need that hand that are so far gone.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Sounds like maybe you work with the homeless? Sometimes it's hard to see the forest through the trees.

At this point, dude, nobody gives a #### about these people's problems since they're causing nothing but problems for us. Police presence shuffles the problem somewhere else and that's it. It solves absolutely nothing and it's ridiculously naïve to think otherwise. We've been trying easy safe access to social services forever and this problem gets worse and worse.

Time for a new approach.

Time for a "West Coast is Calling" campaign and sell them on the benefits of the weather and free drugs out there. It probably doesn't cost that much to charter a bunch of buses out to Vancouver or Victoria.

[Jason14h]

Why aren’t the options Jail or Rehab establishment for the people breaking the law ?

Why is this so complicated . Sure locking them up will cost taxpayers , but it beats them attacking citizens

Break the law you go to jail or rehab . Honestly , I don’t care about the why they are committing crimes - if they refuse to get clean then to jail you go until you get clean / enter a proper rehabilitation program

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

The idea of mad max and outside airdrie is typically where prisons are put. I think prisons for these drugs should focus on not removing the substance from them physically so they can be slowly de-toxed, then there should be counselling and support and then there should be prep for return to society and even funding for those that have been successful.

I'll tell you what's "Mad Max"- letting civilians get stabbed on public transportation or harassed by vagrants. That's what's "Mad Max".

The bolded part is the key part of the solution that we aren't doing. Do this, and watch things get better.

Again- Portugal model. That's basically what they did (somewhat differentiated in that they "de-criminalized" such acts), but ultimately the end result is quasi-similar and a step change improvement to the present. Detention, detox- then treatment. Not what we do, which is (short) detention, release, no detox, and rinse repeat.

Like, no, force treatment- AFTER detox... if this means they are in a prison or a house or a whatever the ####- that part is less important to me than the detox and treatment part, but still part of the solution. You have to have some kind of detention system. People on these drugs are not thinking rationally. You're not even talking to the person themself that is addicted to the substance, you're basically just talking to the substance / addiction. Have you ever talked to addicts? That's what it's like. Then when they sober up, whaddya know, rational minds emerge.

[Mr.Coffee]

Portugal has demonstrated pretty much one of the only solutions to this complex problem worldwide.

There is a solution in a society, full of human beings, for a substantially similar (if not the same) problem.

We look at that solution and then make up excuses as to why it wouldn't work here.

So Canadian. So unbelievably stupid.