Dealership; Used cars

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Sample00

At our dealership, we give you a bottom line price. GST is exclusive of that because we all have to pay the GST.

We dont add in doc fees, AMVIC fees or any other fee. If you want extra warranty, life/dis, etc, those are seperate and the client is advised of that prior to shaking hands on the deal.

Slightly off topic...but I just went through a whole debate with AMVIC about this. We simply added it into our doc fee, and they implicitly stated. "The $6.25 AMVIC levy must be broken out of your fees and shown as a clear separate charge on the bill of sale."

Its a pain in the butt because now we have 5000 bills of sale at a buck a pop we have to get reprinted to reflect the change. I would talk to your Dealer Principal or controller about this to get clarification.

[Calgary '89]

Originally Posted by kunkstyle

I find a good rule of thumb is 10% below. I wouldn't say 27k is too agressive. Throw it out there. The worst thing they'll do is say no. It's not like you're offering half. What kind of vehicle is it?

If it's a vehichle you don't mind not getting, or can wait a while before you pick it up, wait it out. Eventually dealers send used vehichles to auction and you can usually find out what the wholesale price is for them. Example: I was looking at a used Dodge Magnum, list was 16,900. I through out about %10 below (15,000). They said they'd get back to me as they didn't have much wiggle room. Manager comes out and says yeah, we can do 15. I didn't take it, as it was more than I wanted to spend on a winter vehicle at the time. Watched the weekly ads, and it ended up dropping to 13K the week before auction. I ended up not taking it as I wasn't happy with the customer service there, but it shows how much wiggle room there is, and how much they actually mark up used vehichles.

How many cars do you buy that you find this to be a good rule of thumb?


I am amazed at how little people actually know about the car industry. It is one of the easiest industries to study/learn about and one of the most scrutinized yet so many people like you figure they already know everything about how to buy cars and how dealers work and how dealers SHOULD work.

You don't see Future shop or most retail outlets putting up with your haggling skills. Most people are just happy to pay the 50 - 100% margins they collect.

I think people use car-buying as an excuse to go on a power trip and act like someone they're not.

The biggest thing a deposit does to any deal is that it separates the buyers from those who just can't commit.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Calgary '89

How many cars do you buy that you find this to be a good rule of thumb?


I am amazed at how little people actually know about the car industry. It is one of the easiest industries to study/learn about and one of the most scrutinized yet so many people like you figure they already know everything about how to buy cars and how dealers work and how dealers SHOULD work.

You don't see Future shop or most retail outlets putting up with your haggling skills. Most people are just happy to pay the 50 - 100% margins they collect.

I think people use car-buying as an excuse to go on a power trip and act like someone they're not.

The biggest thing a deposit does to any deal is that it separates the buyers from those who just can't commit.

because nothing in Future Shop costs $25,000. you can't compare buying a vehicle to paying for something at retail, they're different processes

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by Byrns

Considering for how much dealerships are buying these cars for, I would say they should have a bunch of wiggle room.

actually this has some truth in it.

1. How much did they "buy" or "have into" the car?
2. what is said vehicle worth (go to a bank and have them tell you)

another set of things come into factor here, like
1. how long has the dealership had the car (10 days or 100?)
2. how slow or busy has the dealers month been?

but overall, if the car is worth only 27k and they are asking 32k I would stay away from it. But a lot depends on how much they have in the vehicle and how motivated they are to sell the vehicle.

[Calgary '89]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

because nothing in Future Shop costs $25,000. you can't compare buying a vehicle to paying for something at retail, they're different processes

Although this is true, you can go to a dealership and haggle and buy a car for $25,000 (as an example) and then go to Future Shop or a similar outlet and spend $2,000.

It's likely that the dealership made less money on you than the other outlet and people are ok with that??

[FCAV]

The MSRP on my last truck was $45,945. I ended up with it at $33,500. Apparently I qualified for a pair of Dodge rebates.

I think people are so skeptical about dealerships and car salesmen is instances like this. I apparently was able to get $12,000 off my truck...

That is, if you believe in things like MSRP.

And mind you, this was in 2008.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by FCAV

The MSRP on my last truck was $45,945. I ended up with it at $33,500. Apparently I qualified for a pair of Dodge rebates.

I think people are so skeptical about dealerships and car salesmen is instances like this. I apparently was able to get $12,000 off my truck...

That is, if you believe in things like MSRP.

And mind you, this was in 2008.

Rebates are a different ball game all together. You don't have to negotiate to get a rebate. Typically all rebates are to customer, not the dealer, so in reality, the only benefit we see as the dealer is an incentive for the vehicle to move off the lot. The end margin typically stays the same. The days of holding rebates are long since gone, as anyone with an internet connection and 20 bucks can find out all they need to know about factory incentives.

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by Calgary '89

How many cars do you buy that you find this to be a good rule of thumb?

6 over the last 10 years between my wife and I. It doesn't always work, but it's not low enough that I've ever insulted anyone by it.

[Jake]

That is definatly do-able.

Car dealerships and salesmen deserve their reputation. Never pay MSRP.

[Deegee]

Originally Posted by pylon

Slightly off topic...but I just went through a whole debate with AMVIC about this. We simply added it into our doc fee, and they implicitly stated. "The $6.25 AMVIC levy must be broken out of your fees and shown as a clear separate charge on the bill of sale."

Likely has something to do with the Fair Trading Act I would assume.

[Sample00]

Originally Posted by Jake

That is definatly do-able.

Car dealerships and salesmen deserve their reputation. Never pay MSRP.

Nice and may I inquire as to what you do for a living?

[Sample00]

Originally Posted by pylon

Slightly off topic...but I just went through a whole debate with AMVIC about this. We simply added it into our doc fee, and they implicitly stated. "The $6.25 AMVIC levy must be broken out of your fees and shown as a clear separate charge on the bill of sale."

Its a pain in the butt because now we have 5000 bills of sale at a buck a pop we have to get reprinted to reflect the change. I would talk to your Dealer Principal or controller about this to get clarification.

well, I'm the owner, so I guess I better make that call to AMVIC to get clarification.

I didnt think it was going to be an issue if we paid it and didnt pass that on to the customer. Guess I better verify.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Calgary '89

Although this is true, you can go to a dealership and haggle and buy a car for $25,000 (as an example) and then go to Future Shop or a similar outlet and spend $2,000.

It's likely that the dealership made less money on you than the other outlet and people are ok with that??

Actually I haggle TVs too. Last TV I bought I got $75 off an $800 sticker TV. There's nothing wrong with bargaining. There's nothing 'ethical' about blindly paying sticker. The salesman doesn't have to accept your every offer, and if he/she does then it's obviously a price that makes sense for them as well .

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Actually I haggle TVs too. Last TV I bought I got $75 off an $800 sticker TV. There's nothing wrong with bargaining. There's nothing 'ethical' about blindly paying sticker.

Basically anything that is sold by a commission sales person, usually has a negotiable price. I've got 20%+ off TV/stereo equipment (visions) and often get that much off appliances.

La-Z-Boy will give you 15% off sticker price if you haggle with them, but not a penny more in my experience.

I also used to get lower prices on sneakers at sport chek/sport mart, but haven't tried that in awhile.

Easiest way to get a discount is say you're going to go buy it at (Future Shop/The Brick/The other La-Z-Boy store in town) if you don't get it. The trick is to do some research first, and actually be prepared to walk. If you say that, and they say forget it, you need to start walking right away, and not look back. It just takes confidence.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Jake

That is definatly do-able.

Car dealerships and salesmen deserve their reputation. Never pay MSRP.

Thats such a dick attitude. For the better part, most of the guys I know in this industry are stand up guys just trying to make a decent living. Car dealerships, dollar for dollar, turn a very meager overall profit. In a lot of business models, the return on investment would be considered unviable.

Oh no!! They are a business trying to make a profit! They must be evil. How about we go by the communist model, and everyone drives one model of government manufactured car, in one trim level. And you get to buy one when your number comes up.

Everyone complains about fees, and labour rates. If you had the slightest clue of how the industry works you may be a bit more sympathetic to the dealer, and understand why these things exist. A manufacturer, can, and will walk into your building and say. You have to do a 3 million dollar rennovation, to bring you up to the current brand standards, and it has to be done by the end of next year, or we have someone else in line who will take the franchise off your hands and you must comply. We are not talking about a cell phone kiosk here, we are talking about 30,000 square foot buildings and fascias. I have seen it twice in ten years with my current brand. Do you think the sales guys want to battle back and forth with you for a deal? They are typically under the command of their manager making them "go get more money". A lot of those guys don't know anything else, and it is the only way they have a chance to make a somewhat decent living.

In the past, the dealers deserved most of the scorn. Nowadays however, most business owners would simply close shop of they were so heavily regulated and had such an intrusive watchdog looking over them at evey turn. I can understand how dealers in some parts of the US and Canada still carry the reputation, but buying a car at a dealership in Alberta is one of the safest transactions you can make in this province. Can a Furnace installer be threatened with prosecution if he does not disclose a fee to you on a bill of sale? No but I can. Can a Future shop salesman be fired by a third party orginization for overcharging you for a Laptop when you didn't see the sale price, and have to pay the difference personally out of his own pocket, nope, but if I did that with a disclosable rebate on a car I would.

I have said it before, and I will say it again. If I lied, and cheated, to any single one of my customers, as much as I am lied to and cheated on a DAILY basis, by people that sit in my office. I would be in jail. I had one guy that lied to me on credit applications about his income, had his car repo'd and then turned around and claimed the application wasn't valid, and I botched the numbers to get them approved. A blatant lie. Try explaining that bs to one of your top lenders. At least once a month I get someone trying to slip a rebuilt write-off under our nose as clean registration. People play the " 'x' dealer said they would sell it for 'y' price. " When it is obvious they are lying. Do people not think the dealers talk. It's a very small community, and contrary to popular belief, the dealers typically get along with each other. A lot of times the sales manager is on the phone with that other dealer calling your bluff.

It goes both way folks.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by pylon

Car dealerships, dollar for dollar, turn a very meager overall profit. In a lot of business models, the return on investment would be considered unviable.

I was under the impression a lot of car dealerships are basically real estate plays, where they operate a car dealership to pay the mortgage on a couple of acres of land in a good location for a decade or two, and then try and sell the land off for condos and a big capital gain.

[Calgary '89]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Actually I haggle TVs too. Last TV I bought I got $75 off an $800 sticker TV. There's nothing wrong with bargaining. There's nothing 'ethical' about blindly paying sticker. The salesman doesn't have to accept your every offer, and if he/she does then it's obviously a price that makes sense for them as well .

I agree, and the fact that the next buyer didn't get your $75 discount doesn't make the TV salesman unethical either.

I think we should all be able to get a better deal if we know how to ask, you just have to put a little work into it.
It's people with that expect-everything-for-nothing attitude that make all the fuss yet they're totally unaccountable for their actions.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Calgary '89

I agree, and the fact that the next buyer didn't get your $75 discount doesn't make the TV salesman unethical either.

I think we should all be able to get a better deal if we know how to ask, you just have to put a little work into it.
It's people with that expect-everything-for-nothing attitude that make all the fuss yet they're totally unaccountable for their actions.

That's how life works. I didn't take it personally when the salesman at Future Shop tried to sell me a $75 extended warranty on a $219 netbook, which I basically consider disposable. He shouldn't have taken it personally when I told him no. It's a terrible deal, so I didn't buy it. I get that he wants to sell high margin/commission items, so no hard feelings are necessary either way.

[Champion]

Luckily I have a friend at Future Shop who I just text when I need something or a bunch of big things. He'll just flat out give me the best deal possible when I buy some warranty. Usually at "Computer Cost" (We all know their computer cost is their cost with all of their other expenses built into it like advertising, etc).

[SportsJunky]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I would like to clarify that there can be fees that aren't mentioned as a starting point on negotiation. Often a customer will not know about a 'Documentation fee for $500' or so before throwing around numbers. In this case the salesperson will come to a price with the customer and then add these items on a sales ticket and tell the customer about them then. Yes, technically before it was signed by the customer, but a sales tactic non-the less. Nothing illegal, or even really all that unethical, but kind of greasy.

We are buying my wife's Mazda after her lease terminated this month. We are being charged !@#$ing $500.00 for the privilege of doing so. On top of all the other fees they are also going to stick us with this paperwork fee. We've paid 4 years of lease payments and are paying the full buyout price and we still have to eat another $500.00. No wonder people think car dealers are shady.