Dealership; Used cars

[4X4]

Originally Posted by DementedReality

oh and let me add this one !

the admin charge for doing paperwork. give me a break! every business has paperwork as part of their overhead of getting your hands in my pockets. hell, i have paperwork to do as well to buy the car, so why dont we just contra each other on that and call it a wash. lol

and then they tell you they had to get the car up to standards and show you how much they "spent" in their own shop to fix it up. ya, right! so really, you didnt tell the person you bought it from that it need X amount of upgrades and use that as a reason to knock the price down.

playing it at both ends, i hate feeling like you think i am dumber then you.

It's such crap, too. If you look closely at those sheets, they're charging like $105 for an oil change and stuff like that. Some of those guys are so stupid. They brag about how much they spent on the truck, but all I'm hearing is that the thing is a GD lemon that needs a stupid amount of work after 50,000km.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Making an offer and hagling are entirely different things.
Plyon said he want's a depsit before haggling, which is silly, as it could lead to this scenario.

Me: Okay here is your $100 now I'd like to discuss the price on this 1983 Sentra.

Plyon: $50,000

Me: I was thinking more like $700

Plyon: fine I'll meet you half way, $25,350, but that's the best I can do.\

Me: No way!

Plyon: Alright then beat it, thanks for the $100 though.

That of course would be the worst plan ever if you wanted repeat business, but it could happen.

That's entirely differnet than making an offer on a house, where you're actually saying "I'd like to pay you $350,000 for this house".

Thats not how it works, but thanks for trying.

If you are making a hard offer on the vehicle, and the dealer accepts, then you reneg then I feel they should have the right to keep your deposit. On credit issues, we would never keep a deposit, unexpected insurance rate hikes either.

Obviously if you cannot come to agreeable terms, no dealer can keep a deposit.

Why certain dealers request deposits with offers, is because it weeds out the people that are really there to just waste time. You would be amazed at how many people are just there to waste the dealers time, and pretend they want to buy a car.

When I was on the sales floor, and someone made me an offer on a car, I would word it exactly like this ,"So, Mr. Smith, your telling me that if we accept your offer, you are prepared to put a deposit on the car today?". If the answer was yes, I would take his credit card in with the offer, and if it was accepted, I would run a $1000 deposit. If we could not take the offer, I wouldn't take the deposit.

I was one of the top sales people in Canada for my brand, for a lot of years. And never once did I have someone not understand why we asked for a deposit if an offer was accepted. You are asking me to take a $50,000 piece of inventory of the shelf for you, of course I am going to want some sort of commitment.

I am sure sample00 will agree with this though. It is absolutely AMAZING how many people have deaths in the family the day of or ofter they buy a car, or lose their jobs, or get divorced overnight. All so they can cancel their deal...lol. Its like they sit there and draw up this master plan... Ok, tell the dealer that you lost your job, I got dignosed with cancer, and your father died.... all between 7 pm last night, and 9 am today... I'm sure they have never heard that excuse before! If people read the fair trading act, and understood there is a cool down period, and they just need to be honest they got cold feet, they wouldn't make themselves look so lame. The funniest one was when I was a noob in the business, and a client did the "My husband passed away trick" I sent a card to her house expressing my condolences, and her husband called me screaming at me for being a dick and calling his wifes bluff. I said "Dude, I felt bad for her, I thought you died."

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by 4X4

That's a pretty good idea. Are you talking about GST as well, of just their stupid fees at the end of the deal? I've been poking around looking for a truck lately, and the stupid fees at the end piss me right off. One of the guys I dealt with had a pretty hard time comprehending my insistence on getting ALL THE FEES on one piece of paper. I want a bottom line, mofo. Not some number like $26,500 until I'm sitting with a pen in my hand and suddenly there's $400 deal fee, $2,000 warranty, $1,500 GST, $700 some other crap.

Some car salesmen are total donkeys. Give me the price. All of it. OK, I can figure out the GST myself if need be, but when I see a sticker price on a used vehicls, I expect that that is the price. Stop finding ways to tack on $2,000 afterward.

Yup, I've been pretty instent that what I'm saying, is what I'm paying, GST and all.

I've actually even straight up told the dealer "I want such and such a vehicle, with these options, etc. I'm going to a couple dealerships today, and I'm gonna buy it from whoever is cheapest. Give me your best all in price right now, and if you're the cheapest I'll be back this afternoon."

That worked pretty well. I had one guy tell me that's now how they work, so I walked out.
I had a couple guys give me decent deals that I'm sure they could have done better on, and I had one guy who said "Sure, let's sit down and see exactly what we can do, and what kind of incetives/rebates/add ons we can get you".
Guess who I bought the car from.
Of course this only works if you're buying new, know exactly what you want, it's relatively common, and have done some research on what it should cost. ie, don't try to do this for a brand new Tacoma.

[Misterpants]

Originally Posted by pylon

Thats not how it works, but thanks for trying.

If you are making a hard offer on the vehicle, and the dealer accepts, then you reneg then I feel they should have the right to keep your deposit. On credit issues, we would never keep a deposit, unexpected insurance rate hikes either.

Obviously if you cannot come to agreeable terms, no dealer can keep a deposit.

Why certain dealers request deposits with offers, is because it weeds out the people that are really there to just waste time. You would be amazed at how many people are just there to waste the dealers time, and pretend they want to buy a car.

When I was on the sales floor, and someone made me an offer on a car, I would word it exactly like this ,"So, Mr. Smith, your telling me that if we accept your offer, you are prepared to put a deposit on the car today?". If the answer was yes, I would take his credit card in with the offer, and if it was accepted, I would run a $1000 deposit. If we could not take the offer, I wouldn't take the deposit.

I was one of the top sales people in Canada for my brand, for a lot of years. And never once did I have someone not understand why we asked for a deposit if an offer was accepted. You are asking me to take a $50,000 piece of inventory of the shelf for you, of course I am going to want some sort of commitment.

I am sure sample00 will agree with this though. It is absolutely AMAZING how many people have deaths in the family the day of or ofter they buy a car, or lose their jobs, or get divorced overnight. All so they can cancel their deal...lol. Its like they sit there and draw up this master plan... Ok, tell the dealer that you lost your job, I got dignosed with cancer, and your father died.... all between 7 pm last night, and 9 am today... I'm sure they have never heard that excuse before! If people read the fair trading act, and understood there is a cool down period, and they just need to be honest they got cold feet, they wouldn't make themselves look so lame. The funniest one was when I was a noob in the business, and a client did the "My husband passed away trick" I sent a card to her house expressing my condolences, and her husband called me screaming at me for being a dick and calling his wifes bluff. I said "Dude, I felt bad for her, I thought you died."

I don't think people are PRETENDING they want to buy a car. I think they are PRETENDING they want to buy a car from you. I think it is reasonable that a customer wants to know what the true cost of doing business with your dealership is versus any of the other places they could buy the same or equivalent vehicle.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by pylon

Thats not how it works, but thanks for trying.

If you are making a hard offer on the vehicle, and the dealer accepts, then you reneg then I feel they should have the right to keep your deposit. On credit issues, we would never keep a deposit, unexpected insurance rate hikes either.

Obviously if you cannot come to agreeable terms, no dealer can keep a deposit.

Why certain dealers request deposits with offers, is because it weeds out the people that are really there to just waste time. You would be amazed at how many people are just there to waste the dealers time, and pretend they want to buy a car.

When I was on the sales floor, and someone made me an offer on a car, I would word it exactly like this ,"So, Mr. Smith, your telling me that if we accept your offer, you are prepared to put a deposit on the car today?". If the answer was yes, I would take his credit card in with the offer, and if it was accepted, I would run a $1000 deposit. If we could not take the offer, I wouldn't take the deposit.

I was one of the top sales people in Canada for my brand, for a lot of years. And never once did I have someone not understand why we asked for a deposit if an offer was accepted. You are asking me to take a $50,000 piece of inventory of the shelf for you, of course I am going to want some sort of commitment.

I am sure sample00 will agree with this though. It is absolutely AMAZING how many people have deaths in the family the day of or ofter they buy a car, or lose their jobs, or get divorced overnight. All so they can cancel their deal...lol. Its like they sit there and draw up this master plan... Ok, tell the dealer that you lost your job, I got dignosed with cancer, and your father died.... all between 7 pm last night, and 9 am today... I'm sure they have never heard that excuse before! If people read the fair trading act, and understood there is a cool down period, and they just need to be honest they got cold feet, they wouldn't make themselves look so lame. The funniest one was when I was a noob in the business, and a client did the "My husband passed away trick" I sent a card to her house expressing my condolences, and her husband called me screaming at me for being a dick and calling his wifes bluff. I said "Dude, I felt bad for her, I thought you died."

Okay, but what you're describing isn't what you said earlier.
Earlier you said you want to have a deposit before haggling (ie, before the guy says "I'll give you $xxx").
What you've said there is you want to have a deposit for accepting an offer (ie after the guy says "I'd like to buyt his car for $xxx"), there's a big difference. One is standard business practice that I've gone through several times, and the other is a great way to get peple to walk away.

I'm gonna chalk it all up to you not typing exactly what you were thinking the firs time out.

[DementedReality]

Originally Posted by pylon

"snipped"

so why cant i give you a deposit AFTER we have agreed to the deal. the deposit so you dont sell the car while all the neccesary due diligence is undertaken.

i agree, if i want you to hold the car for a day or two while i wait for my wife to do her test drive, sure take a deposit. however, i simply want to know if we can agree on a price, why should i give you a deposit?

how about you give me a deposit so i know you are serious about selling the car and not just testing what the market will pay!

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Misterpants

I don't think people are PRETENDING they want to buy a car. I think they are PRETENDING they want to buy a car from you. I think it is reasonable that a customer wants to know what the true cost of doing business with your dealership is versus any of the other places they could buy the same or equivalent vehicle.

No, trust me. There are a ton of people out there that have absolutely no means to buy a new vehicle, no credit card to rent one, but will waste a sales guys time to get a test drive, full well knowing they have zero intent to buy a car.

I can think of at least a dozen people off the top of my head that for over a decade, have been trolling showrooms in this city wasting peoples time, right from the sales guys to the parts and service guys. And a ton of dealers know all the same people. You could walk into half the delaers in this city and drop their names, and people would know exactly who you are talking about. My favorite guy is Skip. Skip is about 50. Overweight and bald. He wears rubber boots in the summer. Skip also owns a 65 foot yacht in Miami, is the president of a software company, is close friends with Bill Gates, and is dating a movie star he cannot name in fear of her husband putting a hit on him. He drives his mothers '92 Caravan because he doesn't want to flaunt his wealth. This guy has been trolling dealers for 15 years, and everyone knows who he is. It is initiation at some dealers to turn the new sales guy on to these flakes, and watch them waste half their day before figuring it out.

Extreme example, but there are tons of people that like to play pretend new car shopper. Not much different than show home tourists, but at least you can just walk through a show home, and not waste 2 hours of the realtors time.

[AMG_G]

Great read about car sales.

http://beta.edmunds.com/car-buying/c...-salesman.html

[Byrns]

Originally Posted by pylon

No, trust me. There are a ton of people out there that have absolutely no means to buy a new vehicle, no credit card to rent one, but will waste a sales guys time to get a test drive, full well knowing they have zero intent to buy a car.

I can think of at least a dozen people off the top of my head that for over a decade, have been trolling showrooms in this city wasting peoples time, right from the sales guys to the parts and service guys. And a ton of dealers know all the same people. You could walk into half the delaers in this city and drop their names, and people would know exactly who you are talking about. My favorite guy is Skip. Skip is about 50. Overweight and bald. He wears rubber boots in the summer. Skip also owns a 65 foot yacht in Miami, is the president of a software company, is close friends with Bill Gates, and is dating a movie star he cannot name in fear of her husband putting a hit on him. He drives his mothers '92 Caravan because he doesn't want to flaunt his wealth. This guy has been trolling dealers for 15 years, and everyone knows who he is. It is initiation at some dealers to turn the new sales guy on to these flakes, and watch them waste half their day before figuring it out.

Extreme example, but there are tons of people that like to play pretend new car shopper. Not much different than show home tourists, but at least you can just walk through a show home, and not waste 2 hours of the realtors time.

Well if any salesman demands a deposit before a test drive won't get a sale from me. (unless I'm buying a Ferrari)

[Sample00]

Originally Posted by 4X4

That's a pretty good idea. Are you talking about GST as well, of just their stupid fees at the end of the deal? I've been poking around looking for a truck lately, and the stupid fees at the end piss me right off. One of the guys I dealt with had a pretty hard time comprehending my insistence on getting ALL THE FEES on one piece of paper. I want a bottom line, mofo. Not some number like $26,500 until I'm sitting with a pen in my hand and suddenly there's $400 deal fee, $2,000 warranty, $1,500 GST, $700 some other crap.

Some car salesmen are total donkeys. Give me the price. All of it. OK, I can figure out the GST myself if need be, but when I see a sticker price on a used vehicls, I expect that that is the price. Stop finding ways to tack on $2,000 afterward.

At our dealership, we give you a bottom line price. GST is exclusive of that because we all have to pay the GST.

We dont add in doc fees, AMVIC fees or any other fee. If you want extra warranty, life/dis, etc, those are seperate and the client is advised of that prior to shaking hands on the deal.

[Misterpants]

I can buy that. I was coming at it more from the perspective of the people who have chosen the model of car and are now trying to come to terms on price. I never thought of the kooks who have nothing better to do than hang around and waste peoples time. That being said, people just want to know they are getting a fair deal most of the time. I don't think it's unreasonable to know the lowest price on a vehicle and compare it to other dealerships.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by pylon

When I was on the sales floor, and someone made me an offer on a car, I would word it exactly like this ,"So, Mr. Smith, your telling me that if we accept your offer, you are prepared to put a deposit on the car today?". If the answer was yes, I would take his credit card in with the offer, and if it was accepted, I would run a $1000 deposit. If we could not take the offer, I wouldn't take the deposit.

That's way more reasonable than what you said before.

Taking a deposit to secure an offer is VERY different than taking a deposit before you deign to negotiate with someone. Every car dealer does that, and the reason is obvious.

I actually bought a car at auction once, and they would only take part of the deposit by visa/mastercard/interac. The rest had to be cash or certified cheque. It turns out my bank wasn't open to get a certified cheque at 8:00 on wednesday night, so I had to hit the ATM 3 times to scrounge up the rest of the deposit.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by pylon

It is absolutely AMAZING how many people have deaths in the family the day of or ofter they buy a car, or lose their jobs, or get divorced overnight. All so they can cancel their deal...lol. Its like they sit there and draw up this master plan... Ok, tell the dealer that you lost your job, I got dignosed with cancer, and your father died.... all between 7 pm last night, and 9 am today... I'm sure they have never heard that excuse before! If people read the fair trading act, and understood there is a cool down period, and they just need to be honest they got cold feet, they wouldn't make themselves look so lame. The funniest one was when I was a noob in the business, and a client did the "My husband passed away trick" I sent a card to her house expressing my condolences, and her husband called me screaming at me for being a dick and calling his wifes bluff. I said "Dude, I felt bad for her, I thought you died."

That's funny.

Reminds me of when I was selling a truck a little while back. I had a deal with a guy who was in from Airdrie or some such parasite community. We agreed on the price, and I agreed to park it until Saturday so that he could get the money order and bring his wife to drive the 2nd vehicle. This was on a thursday night. Saturday morning he call me and told me that there had been "a tragedy in the family" and he couldn't buy the truck anymore.
Thanks, dick. I pulled my ads from kijiji and buysell because of you. And being the trusting idiot that I am, took no deposit either.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Byrns

Well if any salesman demands a deposit before a test drive won't get a sale from me. (unless I'm buying a Ferrari)

I have never demanded a deposit for a test drive, ever. Even when I was working a a Porsche dealer, where did I say that? I have however declined test drives to people when my gut has told me I was dealing with a test pilot. In some cases I may have lost a deal over it, but I cannot recall how many times the alarm bell went off, and I just went anyway, negotiated a deal, only to find out the guy couldn't finance a ham sandwich, let alone the mayo on it. However, is some guy is making an offer to buy something, I am going to ask him to back his offer with a commitment if it is accepted. That is standard business practice in many businesses besides the car industry.

[DementedReality]

Originally Posted by pylon

However, is some guy is making an offer to buy something, I am going to ask him to back his offer with a commitment if it is accepted. That is standard business practice in many businesses besides the car industry.

yes, sure, no problem!

how come you have to have my credit card in your hand though?

if we come to terms on the price, i should give you a deposit. however, i dont think i should have to give you a deposit at the negotiation stage. the deposit should be when the sales manager and i agree on a price and we shake hands. at that stage, whatever we negotiated would be the deposit should change hands.

i dont think this is the process though. its usually, give us a deposit with your FIRST offer. no?

[pylon]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

That's way more reasonable than what you said before.

Taking a deposit to secure an offer is VERY different than taking a deposit before you deign to negotiate with someone. Every car dealer does that, and the reason is obvious.

I actually bought a car at auction once, and they would only take part of the deposit by visa/mastercard/interac. The rest had to be cash or certified cheque. It turns out my bank wasn't open to get a certified cheque at 8:00 on wednesday night, so I had to hit the ATM 3 times to scrounge up the rest of the deposit.

What I initially meant was... the OP made a hard offer on the vehicle, and if his salesman was any good, he would had secured the offer with a deposit the way I mentioned above.

If I had asked the guy ,"So what you are telling me, is you are prepared to put a deposit on the Magnum today if I can get it to you for $15000?" and he said "No, I just want your best price." I probably would have said, "I am sure we would be interested in your offer, and may be able to accept it. However why don't you come back and negotiate when you are prepared to buy the vehicle."

I was a very user friendly sales guy. Super friendly, never lied to a customer once, and didn't bs people. I walked people away from deals I thought were bad and in many cases got tons of refferals from those same people. However, if IO felt I was getting the run-aropund, sometimes in the middle of a presentation, a bunch of test drives or negotiation where I would just stop and ask. "Are you interested in doing business with us? Or are you still quite a ways from making a purchase? I hope you can understand I am not paid to ride around in the back seat of a car all day, and I would hope you would respect my time, as much as I have respected yours up to this point."

And no body took genuine offense. If anything a lot of people would actually cut to the chase and pick a car at that point.

[burn_this_city]

I had to put a deposit down prior to test driving our last car we bought. It really depends on the model, but anything sporty with a few hundred horses will likely require a deposit before test drive. If you think about it, they are protecting the eventual owner of the car from some dbag redlining it during a test drive. I would be furious to buy a nice car that someone decided to joy ride and bag on.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by DementedReality

yes, sure, no problem!

how come you have to have my credit card in your hand though?

if we come to terms on the price, i should give you a deposit. however, i dont think i should have to give you a deposit at the negotiation stage. the deposit should be when the sales manager and i agree on a price and we shake hands. at that stage, whatever we negotiated would be the deposit should change hands.

i dont think this is the process though. its usually, give us a deposit with your FIRST offer. no?

In 1970 yes.

Today, no.

[albertGQ]

I went into Sunridge Mazda the other day and financed a ham sandwhich. I couldn't afford the mayo though.

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by pylon

What I initially meant was... the OP made a hard offer on the vehicle, and if his salesman was any good, he would had secured the offer with a deposit the way I mentioned above.

Ummm, I wasn't the OP, and there was no hard offer.

The OP was asking for a ballpark on what could be taken off list price on a used car.