Windows 7: More disapointing as the days go on

Originally Posted by kermitology

As far as I'm concerned Snow Leopard has been a disaster for me. My main computer at work is a MacBook and it became virtually unusable with all the "pausing" and waiting I had to do because of some hard-drive stalling issue. I applied the patch that Apple provided, but I'm still seeing a really sluggish operating system.

My iMac isn't much better. It's performance trying to open a webpage makes me want to throw it across the room. I've used PCs for years and I've expected that kind of behaviour after a while and a fresh go of things always clears it up, but I didn't expect such terrible performance from my Macs.

If you want to talk about something that Apple has done wonders with, it's the multi-touch trackpad. Mice are for suckers.

These experiences are not uncommon. That's my point.

FanIn80 decided to make some smarta$$ remark instead of actually researching what I had suggested. Fact is, Snow Leopard has had a multitude of problems none of which have been greatly publicized by Microsoft. Why? Because they still hold 90% (or close to it) of the market share and most likely 99% of the corporate market.

Mac's are fine. I don't hate them. But they ARE far overpriced. Sure we can grab an expensive Dell and do a comparison. The Dell will be more. But you did just compare an EXPENSIVE PC, by PC standards, to the AVERAGE mac.

[FanIn80]

OK, I just looked at the laptop he was trying to compare. It had G wireless, no Bluetooth, no webcam, a 1.6Ghz processor with an 800MHz bus, 800MHz DDR2 RAM, a 4 Cell battery that would be lucky to even get 90 minutes of battery life.... in other words, not even close to being the same thing.

I just went to Dell's website and did my own comparison... this time actually trying to match real specs:

Dell 13" Inspiron
13" LCD with Integrated Webcam
2.4GHz Core 2 Duo with 800Mhz bus
3GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 @ 800MHz
250GB SATA Hard Drive
Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100
8X CD/DVD Burner (Dual Layer DVD+/-R Drive)
85Whr Lithium Ion Battery (9 cell)
Dell Wireless 1505 Wireless-N Mini-card
Dell BH200 Bluetooth 2.0 EDR Stereo Headset, VOIP Capable edit
Soundblaster X-Fi Hi Def Audio - Software Enabled

Price: $1139

13" MacBook
13.3-inch LED-backlit glossy widescreen display with 1280 x 800 resolution
2.26GHz Intel Core 2 Duo with 1066MHz bus
2 GB DDR3 memory @ 1066MHz
250GB hard drive
8x double-layer SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics with 256MB DDR3
Glass Multi-Touch Trackpad
Built-in 7-hour battery
Built-in AirPort Extreme Wi-Fi 802.11n
Built-in Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR
Built-in 10/100/1000BASE-T Gigabit Ethernet
Built-in iSight camera
Built-in stereo speakers
Built-in omnidirectional microphone
Combined optical digital output/headphone out

Price: $1099

Better display, faster processor (the new 2.26 with 1066 bus is faster than the old 2.4 with 800 bus), faster ram, longer lasting batter (by a huge margin), better Bluetooth... much, much, much better graphics processor...

...and $40 cheaper.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Uhh... he updated it to a "Core 2 Duo." What speed? What's the bus? It could be a 1.6GHz Core 2 Duo with 333MHz bus. How is that even close to a 2.2GHz with a 1066MHz bus?

I don't really feel like looking it up again but it was a 2.something ghz with a 1066 MHz bus i think that got thrown in there. Honestly, we're REALLY starting to split hairs here.

Yes, they have approx. 7 hour battery life. Its wireless is only g. If you care about n (I certainly don't - I doubt most consumers do), its a whopping $30 more. Personally, I like the fact that I can strip out all the extra 'features' if they're completely useless to me and buy a machine with specs that match my needs. But again, to each their own.

I know you really really want apple to 'win' but who really cares this much.
OSx has its strengths and weaknesses and its place in the market.
Windows has its strengths and weaknesses and its place in the market.
Linux has its strengths and weaknesses and its place in the market.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

I know you really really want apple to 'win' but who really cares this much.

I don't care about winning. I'm proving a point. I'm sick and tired of people yipping off about tired old cliches that aren't even remotely accurate anymore.

I honestly don't care how I look right now. If I have to look like the world's biggest jerk to make my point, then so be it. I'll gladly take that hit if that's what it takes to get people to start actually doing informed research instead of just regurgitating the same old lies over and over again.

I have absolutely no qualms about this type of thing.

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

FanIn80 decided to make some smarta$$ remark instead of actually researching what I had suggested.

That's not what I did. You're the one making the claim that there is this global dislike of Snow Leopard, when everything I have read and seen claims exactly the opposite. I made a smartass comment showing that anyone can make a blanket statement that looks like it has some foundation without actually providing proof.

I'm not minimizing whatever issues you've had with Snow Leopard, and I know there are a few things about it that I don't like... but you, me and the frog doesn't equal a global state of unrest in the Mac world.

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Sure we can grab an expensive Dell and do a comparison. The Dell will be more. But you did just compare an EXPENSIVE PC, by PC standards, to the AVERAGE mac.

That's not what I did. I grabbed another all-in-one system with close-to-matching specs and compared them. Comparing $400 PC to iMacs is an insult to anyone who knows anything about hardware. I did an even-system comparison (for once) instead of a blanket statement.

[TheU]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I don't care about winning. I'm proving a point. I'm sick and tired of people yipping off about tired old cliches that aren't even remotely accurate anymore.

I honestly don't care how I look right now. If I have to look like the world's biggest jerk to make my point, then so be it. I'll gladly take that hit if that's what it takes to get people to start actually doing informed research instead of just regurgitating the same old lies over and over again.

I have absolutely no qualms about this type of thing.



That's not what I did. You're the one making the claim that there is this global dislike of Snow Leopard, when everything I have read and seen claims exactly the opposite. I made a smartass comment showing that anyone can make a blanket statement that looks like it has some foundation without actually providing proof.

I'm not minimizing whatever issues you've had with Snow Leopard, and I know there are a few things about it that I don't like... but you, me and the frog doesn't equal a global state of unrest in the Mac world.



That's not what I did. I grabbed another all-in-one system with close-to-matching specs and compared them. Comparing $400 PC to iMacs is an insult to anyone who knows anything about hardware. I did an even-system comparison (for once) instead of a blanket statement.

Fanin80 kicking some ass and takin names

[dobbles]

since this thread has been totally hijacked, and because my job is boring, i went over to newegg and looked some stuff up. i am not providing links as i don't care enough to copy and paste all that. this is in regards to that 27" model that was posted.

monitor - they only had 3 27" models and they didn't specifically state if they had IPS, but they looked pretty solid for around $400
processor - intel i5 @ 2.66ghz was $200
ram - 4gb (2x2) of 1066mhz was around $75
hdd - 1tb @ 7200 rpm was around $90
ati radeon 4850 w/512mb of ram was $120
dvd multidrives were around $30
motherboard i looked for a pretty basic model that had ieee 1394 ports, gigabit lan, the audio inputs listed for the mac and found there were many priced around $100
power supply 700W for $75
basic keyboard and moue $30
speakers @ 24W for $20
bluetooth 2.1 usb adapter for $15
wireless N pci card for $40
basic microphone $10
media card reader for $20
webcam simple 1.3mp for $50
windows OS around $150

that gives a total of $1475. i tried not to just pick the absolute lowest priced components. just as i do when i shop, i looked for some well rated versions and then picked an average price. with all the components you might be able to save a few bucks in some places and lose a few in others.

i know there will probably be more hyper analytic complaints about my choices, but i would be able to build a comparable system for hundreds less. so i will continue to hold to the mac is more expensive mantra.

EDIT: forgot to add a case. since most cases are aestetic choices, i will just add $50 for that. they start on newegg around 20 bucks, so i think 50 is reasonable. updated the total to reflect that.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by TheU

Fanin80 kicking some ass and takin names

Is he? Really?

Its pretty clear that to him, Apples are a better choice and a perceived better value for his money. Fine. That's why he's an Apple user.
A more affordable and customizable PC running Windows and Linux is a better fit for me and better value for my money hence why I run what I do.


Here's where the cost argument comes in for 95% of users: They walk into futureshop looking for a computer to check their e-mail, get on the internet, listen to music, watch porn, play solitaire. That $400 laptop running Windows is more than enough. Hell, the $250 netbook when they go on sale will do the trick for that matter. What's the cheapest Apple setup that will do that? $1000ish?
People can whine all day until the cows come home about how its an apples or oranges comaprasion but in the end the average consumer doesn't know and doesn't care what speed their front side bus is or how fast their RAM is. Furthermore, they probably wouldn't notice a difference if you swapped it out with a marginally faster one.

[silentsim]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Do a search for Snow Leopard disasters. It is not uncommon.

Snow Leopard problems were widely posted, but it wasn't a disaster. Apple was quick to push on 10.6.1, and are now in the final stages of 10.6.2.

you have to remember, the people without a problem don't make noise :P

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I honestly don't care how I look right now. If I have to look like the world's biggest jerk to make my point, then so be it. I'll gladly take that hit if that's what it takes to get people to start actually doing informed research instead of just regurgitating the same old lies over and over again.

thats the problem though. when you come off as a jerk people stop listening. the reason more people don't get past the mac is overpriced myth is all you guys turn into uber fan boi's when trying to explain your side. maybe if you could be rational and not come off as such an elitist then people would be more willing to listen?

Originally Posted by FanIn80

That's not what I did. You're the one making the claim that there is this global dislike of Snow Leopard, when everything I have read and seen claims exactly the opposite. I made a smartass comment showing that anyone can make a blanket statement that looks like it has some foundation without actually providing proof.

I'm not minimizing whatever issues you've had with Snow Leopard, and I know there are a few things about it that I don't like... but you, me and the frog doesn't equal a global state of unrest in the Mac world.

Sigh. I did not claim there was a global dislike of SL nor was it a global statement. The point I was trying to make is that all O/S have issues. Including SL. In fact, SL has had probably more issues than other mac O/S's. I am not sure what you are reading, perhaps Mac Fanboi sites aren't the best indicator.

Originally Posted by FanIn80

That's not what I did. I grabbed another all-in-one system with close-to-matching specs and compared them. Comparing $400 PC to iMacs is an insult to anyone who knows anything about hardware. I did an even-system comparison (for once) instead of a blanket statement.

You completely missed what I said. I know what YOU did. The fact is, the PC you compared it to is not what an AVERAGE PC user would have.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

Is he? Really?

Its pretty clear that to him, Apples are a better choice and a perceived better value for his money. Fine. That's why he's an Apple user.
A more affordable and customizable PC running Windows and Linux is a better fit for me and better value for my money hence why I run what I do.


Here's where the cost argument comes in for 95% of users: They walk into futureshop looking for a computer to check their e-mail, get on the internet, listen to music, watch porn, play solitaire. That $400 laptop running Windows is more than enough. Hell, the $250 netbook when they go on sale will do the trick for that matter. What's the cheapest Apple setup that will do that? $1000ish?
People can whine all day until the cows come home about how its an apples or oranges comaprasion but in the end the average consumer doesn't know and doesn't care what speed their front side bus is or how fast their RAM is. Furthermore, they probably wouldn't notice a difference if you swapped it out with a marginally faster one.

Again, I have stated repeatedly that there is nothing wrong with wanting a cheaper computer. My only point is that, when you match specs-to-specs, Macs are not over-priced. They are expensive... but it's not like you're getting a toaster for that money. You are actually getting equivalent-to-price specs.

[underGRADFlame]

Results 1 - 10 of about 414,000 for Snow Leopard disasters. (0.36 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 31,700,000 for windows 7 disasters. (0.17 seconds)

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by underGRADFlame

Results 1 - 10 of about 414,000 for Snow Leopard disasters. (0.36 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 31,700,000 for windows 7 disasters. (0.17 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 17,700,000 for snow leopard [definition]. (0.14 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 755,000,000 for windows 7. (0.16 seconds)

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

You completely missed what I said. I know what YOU did. The fact is, the PC you compared it to is not what an AVERAGE PC user would have.

I know it's not something an average computer user would buy. If the average computer user wants a $400 computer, than that's fine... but stop thinking that the $400 PC is just as good as the iMac, because it's not even remotely close in hardware comparison.

People want to compare Macs to AVERAGE PCs... but the Macs are not AVERAGE PCs. They are high-end PCs that, when compared spec-for-spec, are often actually CHEAPER than matching PCs.

Apple has never claimed to want to market to the $400 PC people. It's not even the same market.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I know it's not something an average computer user would buy. If the average computer user wants a $400 computer, than that's fine... but stop thinking that the $400 PC is just as good as the iMac, because it's not even remotely close in hardware comparison.

People want to compare Macs to AVERAGE PCs... but the Macs are not AVERAGE PCs. They are high-end PCs that, when compared spec-for-spec are often actually CHEAPER than matching PCs.

Apple has never claimed to want to market to the $400 PC people. It's not even the same market.

Holy crap. they must have you working some major overtime at the mac store.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by dobbles

thats the problem though. when you come off as a jerk people stop listening. the reason more people don't get past the mac is overpriced myth is all you guys turn into uber fan boi's when trying to explain your side. maybe if you could be rational and not come off as such an elitist then people would be more willing to listen?

The fanboy thing is just another tactic to hide behind.

I'm breaking through barriers, brother, one lie at a time.

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I know it's not something an average computer user would buy. If the average computer user wants a $400 computer, than that's fine... but stop thinking that the $400 PC is just as good as the iMac, because it's not even remotely close in hardware comparison.

People want to compare Macs to AVERAGE PCs... but the Macs are not AVERAGE PCs. They are high-end PCs that, when compared spec-for-spec are often actually CHEAPER than matching PCs.

Apple has never claimed to want to market to the $400 PC people. It's not even the same market.

Sorry, I meant to add that Windows all-in-ones are notoriously more expensive then apples. Why? Because PC users don't buy them. They are difficult to upgrade, have a lot of proprietary parts, etc. To me, the defeats the purpose of a PC.

I can build an equivalent PC desktop (tower) with monitor (a beautiful 26" with TV tuner and speakers), PC speakers, keyboard mouse, webcam, (everything that mac you posted had) for $600 less. In the PC world, $600 can buy you a heck of a lot.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I know it's not something an average computer user would buy. If the average computer user wants a $400 computer, than that's fine... but stop thinking that the $400 PC is just as good as the iMac, because it's not even remotely close in hardware comparison.

For what the average user actually does with their computer, that $400 PC works just as well as the iMac.

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Apple has never claimed to want to market to the $400 PC people. It's not even the same market.

Then Apple fanboys need to learn to STFU and stop getting butthurt over why people still choose to use Micro$oft Windoze and not 'upgrade' to OSx so all their dreams can come true.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by underGRADFlame

Results 1 - 10 of about 414,000 for Snow Leopard disasters. (0.36 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 31,700,000 for windows 7 disasters. (0.17 seconds)

Divide by market share and account for the fact that Snow Leopard doesn't have a lot of features that make it a really compelling and widely installed upgrade, and those numbers aren't too bad.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

Results 1 - 10 of about 17,700,000 for snow leopard [definition]. (0.14 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 755,000,000 for windows 7. (0.16 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 16,900,000 for "snow leopard"
Results 1 - 10 of about 84,300,000 for "windows 7"

Not refuting the gist of your post, I actually agree with it. Windows 7 isn't really a good search term; it'll return almost as many hits as just 'windows' on its own.