Vatican endorses Evolution...disses Creationism

[missdpuck]

I don't know for sure if the Moody Bible Radio Network still broadcasts AiG (Answers in Genesis-young earth promoters) or ICR but they do have close to 500 affiliate stations. i don't know if James Dobson is a young-earth guy, but he has quite a following in print and on radio. Don't have exact numbers though.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

I guess a reverse question could also be asked.. what's worse, 44% of people in the US believing in a young earth and having the influence to pressure the education system to teach their unscientific views in science class, or 10% of people in the US having that much influence?

There are currently no unscientific views being taught in science classes that I'm aware of. So evidently this seemingly silent (slight) minority isn't effective in influencing much of anything.

What 10% are you referring to? I'm a bit confused by your question.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Photon....where do you see all this airtime for people spouting off about young earth creation? Seriously.

It is a very prominent topic in much of the U.S. media and politics. There have been many stories in the past few years, especially regarding the teaching of evolution in schools. Creationism, Intelligent Design, and Young Earth Creationism inevitably pop up in the articles or news segments and interviews with parents, school board members, and even prominent politicians and political candidates.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

It is a very prominent topic in much of the U.S. media and politics. There have been many stories in the past few years, especially regarding the teaching of evolution in schools. Creationism, Intelligent Design, and Young Earth Creationism inevitably pop up in the articles or news segments and interviews with parents, school board members, and even prominent politicians and political candidates.

Yes for creationism and ID. Not for the other.

Not prominent AT ALL>

[missdpuck]

Didn't Georgia consider banning "evolution" from textbooks fairly recently, like 2003-4. They were going to at least use a different term.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

Didn't Georgia consider banning "evolution" from textbooks fairly recently, like 2003-4. They were going to at least use a different term.

Yep, and Kansas was trying to get equal time for ID. Both failed.

[stuck_in_chuk]

Lots of activity in this thread while I was gone, and I think Photon has made some very valuable points in my defence (thanks, Photon). Admittedly, I don't know that many Americans personally, and I would never make the claim that Americans are dumb. The evidence shows that Americans are more religious than Canadians, and it is hard to argue with that assumption. Any numbers that I mentioned (and disputed by Displaced Flames Fan) came from polls, and I referenced the source of those polls. I used American poll results because they are easier to find. The numbers are not mine; they come from polling firms whose job is to take polls and report data.

One question, Displaced - what part of the US do you live in? The north and especially New England are notoriously less literalist, and they call parts of the south "the Bible belt" for a reason. In my last trip to the US, I heard radio shows that rejected evolution, and that specifically mentioned the age of earth at 6000 years. I hasten to point out that I didn't listen to Christian stations for much of the trip, but I heard people talking about a young earth. Anecdotal evidence, I admit. I just wanted to point out that you don't have to look very far to find the viewpoint that the earth is 6000 years old.

As for ID - it is part of a wedge strategy to introduce creationism into public schools.

Someone - and I can't remember who - argued with my claim that the bible states the earth is 6000 years old. I'll concede that point, although many people who have read the bible a lot more than me have come to the conclusion that the earth is 6000 years old based on biblical chronology. The bible does claim that the earth existed for 5 days before humans came along. Unless you wish to say that "day" refers to an unspecified amount of time, as "in the day of". In which case, the earth had vegetation for an unspecified amount of time before the sun was created. Another explanation is that it is a metaphor, trying to explain in simple terms to a simple audience how things happened. So how is it any different than any of the other creation stories out there?

The bible gets authority because it is believed to be the word of God. You need a theed said the following regarding geocentrism:

Again, the bible isn't in those passages trying to be a science textbook. The writers of those verses only knew what they could observe at the time, they didn't know that the earth "moved."

If the bible is the word of God, then the author would know that the earth is not fixed in place but does indeed move. If the bible is not the word of God, and is actually the work of men, then should we not look to a more recent book to explain how things are?

[Displaced Flames fan]

I'm in the bible belt, Wichita, KS. But I'm originally from NW Montana.

Don't think it was anything personal. I just find the Gallup numbers extremely difficult to believe. Maybe my two letter post wasn't the appropriate way to convey that!

The idea that earth is 6000 years old, bible involved or not, is just dumb and I seriously doubt 44% of Americans actually believe it to be true. I know a lot of us are idiots (and I didn't say that in response to anything you had said) but it I still think 44% is a major reach.

I know all about ID and the plans of some to get it into schools, but that's really irrelevant to this young Earth jive.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

There are currently no unscientific views being taught in science classes that I'm aware of. So evidently this seemingly silent (slight) minority isn't effective in influencing much of anything.

Currently no, but you've already brought up the Dover trial which is very recent. There are also ongoing battles in other areas for this kind of thing. Legislation in various states which have been introduced which appear to be laying the groundwork for future efforts.

You live in the US so you see your surroundings.. while when I see the US when it comes to these kinds of issues I see it as a nation rather than regions. The "density" of young earth creationists where you live might be low, but there are areas where it is much higher. As the polls show, overall it's not an insignificant amount.

The possible future vice-president thinks that creationism should be taught in schools and that dinosaurs and humans co-existed, you don't get support as a political by holding views that the majority don't hold.

What 10% are you referring to? I'm a bit confused by your question.

You don't believe the 44% number, yet you haven't provided any kind of support for a different number (other than incredulity). I just made up the 10% to pick a lower number. I'm just saying that the amount of press time the issue is getting makes more sense if it's a higher percentage that are supporting that view.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I know all about ID and the plans of some to get it into schools, but that's really irrelevant to this young Earth jive.

Intelligent Design is not 'irrelevant' to Young Earth Creationism because despite differences in mechanics, they both have the same central thesis (intelligent designer created to the universe and is the principle supernatural force behind overservable and testable phenomenon regarding the origins of the earth and the origins of species) by itself means little, but when you research the proponents of the ID movement, you find that when speaking of the movement in the United States, you find they generally share the same judeo-Christian background and motivation as those that favor YEC. They different sides to the same coin, both attempting to reconcile science with a faith...even a specific faith.

If you want to teach ID in schools, go ahead, but teaching it alongside evolution is critically flawed since there is nothing to teach; no experiments, theories, or concepts except for psuedo-science cloaked apologetics. Those belong in faith studies or religious studies classes (which definetely should be taught in schools).

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

You don't believe the 44% number, yet you haven't provided any kind of support for a different number (other than incredulity). I just made up the 10% to pick a lower number. I'm just saying that the amount of press time the issue is getting makes more sense if it's a higher percentage that are supporting that view.

Well, I haven't seen the evidence of press time that you keep referring to. I'm not lying. I've never heard of the stupid thing until I saw it here. I told you already I thought the numbers in your link were much more likely to be true than those Gallup numbers.

I guess I still don't understand what you were trying to get at with the question.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Well, I haven't seen the evidence of press time that you keep referring to. I'm not lying. I've never heard of the stupid thing until I saw it here. I told you already I thought the numbers in your link were much more likely to be true than those Gallup numbers.

I guess I still don't understand what you were trying to get at with the question.

I can't provide any empircal evidence either but I can testify that I have seen it in the news quite often. Read about it journals. I've seen documentaries on it, etc. Maybe we are just exposed to different sources and channels of things than you are. I know many people who have never heard of a lot of the things in the news that I talk to them about. They generally just pay attention to different things than I do.

For some of us Albertans, I'm sure we've read about the Creationism museum that opened up in Drumheller to combat the Royal Tyrell Museum.
http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archive...f-toon/page/2/
(yes, that might not be a very respectful sight for some...but I thought it could provide some entertainment for this thread)

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Intelligent Design is not 'irrelevant' to Young Earth Creationism because despite differences in mechanics, they both have the same central thesis (intelligent designer created to the universe and is the principle supernatural force behind overservable and testable phenomenon regarding the origins of the earth and the origins of species) by itself means little, but when you research the proponents of the ID movement, you find that when speaking of the movement in the United States, you find they generally share the same judeo-Christian background and motivation as those that favor YEC. They different sides to the same coin, both attempting to reconcile science with a faith...even a specific faith.

YEC, as I guess we can call it now, is so flawed it is dumb. ID at least has an outside chance of being real. That's why the latter is irrelevant to the former in the context we were discussing YEC. The context you've used here is just a given correlation. Nobody is disputing that. Irrelevant to the conversation we were having.

If you want to teach ID in schools, go ahead, but teaching it alongside evolution is critically flawed since there is nothing to teach; no experiments, theories, or concepts except for psuedo-science cloaked apologetics. Those belong in faith studies or religious studies classes (which definetely should be taught in schools).

What on earth gave you the idea I want to teach ID in schools and why do you feel I don't know how unscientific it is?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I can't provide any empircal evidence either but I can testify that I have seen it in the news quite often. Read about it journals. I've seen documentaries on it, etc. Maybe we are just exposed to different sources and channels of things than you are. I know many people who have never heard of a lot of the things in the news that I talk to them about. They generally just pay attention to different things than I do.

For some of us Albertans, I'm sure we've read about the Creationism museum that opened up in Drumheller to combat the Royal Tyrell Museum.

Did you go looking for the information or did you just stumble upon it? You've seen YEC in the news quite often? I watch the news nearly every day. Never heard of it.

Are you lumping YEC in with ID/creationism and calling it the same dog?

[photon]

Well true if you don't see the press time it gets then I agree the question wouldn't make much sense.

It's enough of an issue that they asked it at that video I posted. It's enough of an issue that a potential VP has been asked about it. I've seen much press about it in newspapers, news, etc..

However the amount of press doesn't really have much to do with the high percentage of people in the US that reject evolution.

Which link's #'s did you think were more likely true? Everything I posted has been pretty much in agreement with the various poll sources that stuck_in_chuk posted (there were far more than the Gallup poll #'s in his link as well).

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

Well true if you don't see the press time it gets then I agree the question wouldn't make much sense.

It's enough of an issue that they asked it at that video I posted. It's enough of an issue that a potential VP has been asked about it. I've seen much press about it in newspapers, news, etc..

However the amount of press doesn't really have much to do with the high percentage of people in the US that reject evolution.

Which link's #'s did you think were more likely true? Everything I posted has been pretty much in agreement with the various poll sources that stuck_in_chuk posted (there were far more than the Gallup poll #'s in his link as well).

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2006...st-w.html#more

44%, the Gallup numbers, was what he used in his text and what I took issue with. Incredulity is all I have to offer you, I'm afraid.

But I don't for a second believe that polling is infallable.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Did you go looking for the information or did you just stumble upon it? You've seen YEC in the news quite often? I watch the news nearly every day. Never heard of it.

Are you lumping YEC in with ID/creationism and calling it the same dog?

There are occasions that I have stumbled across it. Other times I heard about it from friend. I do go looking for it sometimes. And finally...if you've been here on Calgarypuck long enough, you realize that religion is a pretty popular topic of discussion and this stuff crops up every few months.

I am not lumping ID with YEC but again, YEC is not irrelevant in any way. It might "have a fat chance of being real" according to you...but many religious people truely believe in many tenents of YEC even if they have not been exposed to the formal YEC movement or have heard about it articulated in that manner. Furthermore, you cannot explore what ID is without learning different facets and arguments behind it. YEC is indeed one of the main arguments behind ID, so much so that there are museums built (in the U.S. and Canada) that support YEC theories and information.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

There are occasions that I have stumbled across it. Other times I heard about it from friend. I do go looking for it sometimes. And finally...if you've been here on Calgarypuck long enough, you realize that religion is a pretty popular topic of discussion and this stuff crops up every few months.

I am not lumping ID with YEC but again, YEC is not irrelevant in any way. It might "have a fat chance of being real" according to you...but many religious people truely believe in many tenents of YEC even if they have not been exposed to the formal YEC movement or have heard about it articulated in that manner. Furthermore, you cannot explore what ID is without learning different facets and arguments behind it. YEC is indeed one of the main arguments behind ID, so much so that there are museums built (in the U.S. and Canada) that support YEC theories and information.

See, I don't call that airtime. Maybe Photon does.

You've got it backwards now. I've never said YEC was irrelevant to ID. What I've said is that ID is irrelevant to the discussion we've been having about how many people believe Earth is less than 10K years old. Big difference.

[Hack&Lube]

I don't know where this thread is going, but nobody is attacking you, Displaced Flames Fan. We're not making fun of the U.S. either. These are just a few polls showing that a large portion of the population leans toward certain fundamental beliefs. If you are incredulous at their findings, you have every right to be but unless we can find other polls or experts, that's all we have to talk about. I gather that Photon (from other threads) had a religious upbringing. So did I. People like us probably do go looking for these things more than average joe in the process of exploring how to reconcile science and religion...and probably have a better understanding of how prevailing certain beliefs are within some religious groups. Given other polls showing the religious breakdowns and demographics in the U.S. it's just a few leaps of logic to correlate those general thoughts with what you want to interpret from the gallup poll.

This is how the religious threads usually go round this here parts of CP. :P

[stuck_in_chuk]

Originally Posted by photon

Well true if you don't see the press time it gets then I agree the question wouldn't make much sense.

It's enough of an issue that they asked it at that video I posted. It's enough of an issue that a potential VP has been asked about it. I've seen much press about it in newspapers, news, etc..

However the amount of press doesn't really have much to do with the high percentage of people in the US that reject evolution.

Which link's #'s did you think were more likely true? Everything I posted has been pretty much in agreement with the various poll sources that stuck_in_chuk posted (there were far more than the Gallup poll #'s in his link as well).

It's not only Sarah Palin - potential Republican candidate Mike Huckabee is a creationist as well. Presumably Mitt Romney as well, but as a Mormon his beliefs would be quite different than those of the average YEC.