Vatican endorses Evolution...disses Creationism

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by stuck_in_chuk

Probably the best known of the biblical chronologies was produced by Rev. James Ussher in the 17th century. It determined that creation occured on Oct. 23, 4004 BC. Info here on how he came to that conclusion. He correlated biblical information (for instance, there is an unbroken male lineage from Adam to Solomon, complete with dates, provided in the bible) along with known historical events to come up with those dates. This calculation is still accepted by many Young Earth Creationists. I will point out that in 2008, a Gallup poll revealed that 44% of US adults agreed with the statement "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years."[link] This same page references a Harris poll which shows support for evolution decreasing in the US over the past 10 years.

My point is that a very significant proportion of the US population believes that the earth is 6000-odd years old, specifically because the bible says so.

No, some people's interpretation of the Bible leads them to believe that the earth is 6000ish years old. The Bible does not say anything about the subject. The 6000ish numbers, like you said, are figured from the geneolgoies. However, we know that the people of those days didn't quite geneologies like we do today. They weren't too concerned if they skipped a generation (or several) when they were writing it down. We see examples of this elsewhere in the bible (see Matthew 1 - generations left out intentionally)

Originally Posted by stuck_in_chuk

There is a (admittedly fringe) group called the Association for Biblical Astronomy (formerly the Tychonian Society) who interpret the bible to say that the earth does not move and that all heavenly bodies revolve around the earth. Here are some relevant verses to support their view:

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

Admittedly, none of these specifically say that the sun revolves around the earth, but if the earth does not move that is the conclusion that must be made. Also, I point out that some people reject the most obvious of scientific facts because they contradict their own interpretation of the bible.

Yes, such groups would be fringe groups. I don't know of any large Christian groups that still believe this. Again, the bible isn't in those passages trying to be a science textbook. The writers of those verses only knew what they could observe at the time, they didn't know that the earth "moved."

As for the pi=3 remark - I just want to make the point that if the bible were written by the omniscient creator of the universe, then he should be able to provide a bit more accuracy. Here is what the verse says:

And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. 1 Kings 7:23.

The addition of the word "approximately" before the words thirty cubits would make this statement true. The fact that this (admittedly slight) inaccuracy occurs in the bible is suggestive that the book was written by primitive men and not by an omniscient creator.

Again, the point of the passage isn't to be mathematically accurate. And besides, measuring by the "cubit" is rather inaccurate anyway, as the measure of a cubit may be different depending on who is measuring, plus we can reasonably expect that they rounded off the numbers as they recorded them. It's just nonsense to read too much into the recorded numbers here.

unfortunately, 44% of Americans reject all science that does not correlate with the bible.

Even if 44% of Americans believe in a young earth, that does not mean that they reject ALL science. But I'll agree that the number is WAY too high. Whatever number it is in the US, it is significantly lower in Canada, as evangelical Christians in Canada are not as extreme in that regard as they are in the US.

Evangelicals (is the US especially) have used the Bible as a science textbook for far too long. Fortunately, I think that it is starting to turn a corner in that area, in my experience, anyway.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by stuck_in_chuk

BS on your BS.

Not really adding much to the debate there, are you?

Explain where that number comes from.

You rattled off with nothing to back it up.

[stuck_in_chuk]

Originally Posted by stuck_in_chuk

Probably the best known of the biblical chronologies was produced by Rev. James Ussher in the 17th century. It determined that creation occured on Oct. 23, 4004 BC. Info here on how he came to that conclusion. He correlated biblical information (for instance, there is an unbroken male lineage from Adam to Solomon, complete with dates, provided in the bible) along with known historical events to come up with those dates. This calculation is still accepted by many Young Earth Creationists. I will point out that in 2008, a Gallup poll revealed that 44% of US adults agreed with the statement "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years."[link] This same page references a Harris poll which shows support for evolution decreasing in the US over the past 10 years.

That number came from the Gallup poll that I referenced earlier. A leap of logic that all young-earthers would reject the evidence of evolution, but I stand by my assumption.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Even if 44% of Americans believe in a young earth, that does not mean that they reject ALL science. But I'll agree that the number is WAY too high. Whatever number it is in the US, it is significantly lower in Canada, as evangelical Christians in Canada are not as extreme in that regard as they are in the US.

He didn't say that.

unfortunately, 44% of Americans reject all science that does not correlate with the bible.

Your selective bolding distorted what he was saying. It's like this:

unfortunately, 44% of Americans reject all science that does not correlate with the bible.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by stuck_in_chuk

That number came from the Gallup poll that I referenced earlier. A leap of logic that all young-earthers would reject the evidence of evolution, but I stand by my assumption.

I'm sure you will stand by it. After all, you must associate with Americans on a daily basis.

I've lived here for 37 years. Have been friends with a few evangelical Christians...one in particular who was the son of a baptist preacher and is himself toying with the idea of becoming one.

I have never even heard of 'a young earth' until I saw it mentioned in this very forum sometime within the last year. If 44% of my fellow Americans, many of whom are admitedly stupid, believed in such things I would've heard about it before now. I stand by that assumption as vehemently as you do yours.

[Five-hole]

Anecdotal evidence is usually considered a poor platform from which to launch a debate, Dis.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

BS

He did provide a link, and that was pretty widely reported at the time. I believe there are other polls which confirm the info.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

Anecdotal evidence is usually considered a poor platform from which to launch a debate, Dis.

I wasn't launching a debate.

I'm saying that I don't believe the polls are accurate.

I'm inclined to play along anyway. Explain to me how I'd never heard of something 44% of Americans supposedly believe in until I stumbled upon it in this forum? Luck?

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

He didn't say that.



Your selective bolding distorted what he was saying. It's like this:

I understood what he said, perhaps I responded a little stronger then was neccessary. But what I was saying that even if 44% of Americans believe in a young earth, the number of people who believe that "the earth is the centre of the universe" or whatever other "science" from the Bible that has been talked about, is significantly lower.

[photon]

Some more support:



http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2006...st-w.html#more

They do raise the point in that article that the results seem to vary depending on the wording of the question.. i.e. more people will support evolution if you don't mention God in the question. Which also isn't encouraging.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

He did provide a link, and that was pretty widely reported at the time. I believe there are other polls which confirm the info.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm

So you REALLY believe 44% of us believe the earth is less than 10000 years old?

That jives with your experience?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

Some more support:



http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2006...st-w.html#more

They do raise the point in that article that the results seem to vary depending on the wording of the question.. i.e. more people will support evolution if you don't mention God in the question. Which also isn't encouraging.

I find it interesting that there are no 'undecided' or 'none of the above' options. Kind of convenient that you have to choose one of their responses. None of them describe my beliefs.

Top that with the words 'unproven theory' and I find the entire thing to be pretty unprofessional. Science doesn't prove anything...it never has and it never will.

[Clarkey]

Doesn't the 'Not Sure' represent the undecided?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

Doesn't the 'Not Sure' represent the undecided?

I think I quoted the wrong article.

[photon]

My experience is irrelevant since I don't know a statistically significant # of people that live in the US.

My experience ranges all over the place. On science forums pretty much 100% of people I talk to accept evolution, but of course that would be expected. My religious friends from the US pretty much 100% believe that the earth is 6000 years old, that Bush is on a mission from God and that the real war is versus Islam not terrorism, but I also expect that because I know them through extreme evangelical church paths.

Given the amount of air-time that young earth creationists get in the US, the significant amount of effort being put into getting creationism into the public education system, the documentaries I've seen on it, yes in general I would say that there is a significant portion of the US that believes along those lines, enough so that they are a political power. I don't see flat-earthers having that much clout or air-time.

From a GOP debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4Cc8t3Zd5E

3 out of 10

Even a vice-presidential candidate believes that dinosaurs and humans coexisted:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20...ss/index1.html

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I find it interesting that there are no 'undecided' or 'none of the above' options. Kind of convenient that you have to choose one of their responses. None of them describe my beliefs.

Top that with the words 'unproven theory' and I find the entire thing to be pretty unprofessional. Science doesn't prove anything...it never has and it never will.

I think it's the Gallup poll that you meant to quote. The percentages don't add up to 100% so the remaining could be the unsure or other portion.

The Gallup poll has been criticized for its questions as it's pretty targeted, but regardless 44% still answered YES to the direct question about God creating man as they are less than 10,000 years ago, which in any way I can think of precludes evolution in any form.

[Displaced Flames fan]

I wonder if people are given a clear definition of evolution when they are asked the questions? I kind of doubt it.

The link photon provided shows much more believable numbers, with the T/F questions.

Photon....where do you see all this airtime for people spouting off about young earth creation? Seriously.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I wonder if people are given a clear definition of evolution when they are asked the questions? I kind of doubt it.

In the link stuck_in_chuk gave some of the polls gave clear (if simple) definitions:

"Evolution -- that is, the idea that human beings developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life"

"Creationism -- that is, the idea that God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years"

From the CBS Poll

"Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin of human beings? (1) Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, and God did not directly guide this process. (2) Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, but God guided this process. (3) God created human beings in their present form."

"Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin of human beings? (1) Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, and God did not directly guide this process. (2) Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, but God guided this process. (3) God created human beings in their present form within the last ten thousand years."

From the Harris Poll

"Do you think human beings developed from earlier species or not?"

You can dispute the exact percentages, but the trend is pretty clear. If you have evidence to support the position that the percentages are a lot lower, I'd be glad to see them.

Photon....where do you see all this airtime for people spouting off about young earth creation? Seriously.

The Discovery Institute is very active in getting their agenda out. My co-worker listens to satellite radio talk radio and mentions to me when he hears this kind of stuff, which is often enough. They build a museum for young earth creation, guys like Dr Dino Kent Hovind (before he went to jail) are always out there giving talks on the radio and TV.

Like I said it's a big enough issue that it's been in the legal system repeatedly, it's brought up to and about presidential candidates, blogs about it abound.

[photon]

I guess a reverse question could also be asked.. what's worse, 44% of people in the US believing in a young earth and having the influence to pressure the education system to teach their unscientific views in science class, or 10% of people in the US having that much influence?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Amazing.

I've never heard of it until I came here yet it's everywhere.

I take issue with the definitions of evolution and creationism given in stuck in chuck's info. Evolution isn't unique to humans. Creationism isn't unique to this wacky young earth theory.

I'm guessing you have to go looking for this kind of stuff to find it. I mean, I can go find KKK propoganda if I want to. I wouldn't consider them to be getting a lot of airtime.