Teen dead after alleged attack by father

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

And there you have it!

Faced with a goodly number of rational, well written, informed, patient and educational posts by sky7i, JoM admits that when confronted with undeniable truths, he is going to keep believing what he believes.

Are you for real? Undeniable truths? Just because a member of a particuler group says all the fuzzy wuzzy things he wants about his group does not make it so. Stalin could have gone on for hours about all the good things that he did for the Soviet Union and not talk about one bad thing and make it seem like he was the best man in the world and the Communists where saints. I really don't get you man.....You seemed to look at only what you want to see. You first attack me in this thread and I completely bust you down with your theory then you fly in with this remark. Did you miss the remarks I made saying I agree with a lot of what he had to say?

Way to have an open mind and to demonstrate a willingness to actually LEARN.

Um......are you talking about yourself....because it sure sounds like it.

I particularly enjoyed the way JoM dismissed sky7i's posts as little more than a different 'perspective'. sky7i brought impressive credentials and information from numerous sources, in addition to his own personal experience, and JoM who just trots out stereotypes and ancedotal evidence can only say "thanks for the perspective"?

So because he is a member of that group makes him a leading spokes person for it and his ideas are unquestionable? I guess my sources and ideas are invalid and hey, lets forget my personal experiences aswell, because hey....they are worthless .

I'd like to thank sky7i for sharing his knowledge and background with Islam with this Forum. Its too bad that some posters are too closed minded to actually benefit from the posts.

All I have to say is there is no debating with you at all. All you do is try and attack personally without providing ANY info......actually wait....you provide mis-information.

[Antithesis]

sky7i, I'd just like to thank you as well for a series of (mostly) enlightening and well-written posts. Every day, I work with Muslim students in a school with no true racial or religious majority and I find almost all of them to behave as peacefully and reasonably as you describe. You couldn't have explained my experience any better.

I also agree with you that many people in Western countries get their view of Islam and its adherents from the traditional media, which to me is a downright shame. IMO (and OT) the media only exists to shock and scare people rather than actually report in a even manner what is actually happening ... take for example this case, where by saying so outright or no, this is being reported as a father killing his daughter because she didn't wear a hijab, when I think it is clear that either this wasn't supposed to end the way it did (which is obviously no excuse) or that the person who perpetrated it was in no way able to think in anything resembling reason.

It scares me to no end that many Calgarians seem to form their opinions on Muslims (and many other things) from the Calgary Sun. How they are allowed to call themselves a 'newspaper' is beyond me ...

[maverickeastwood]

This also OT, But Antithesis is right

I make my living off the evening news
Just give me something-something I can use
People love it when you lose,
They love dirty laundry

Well, I coulda been an actor, but I wound up here
I just have to look good, I dont have to be clear
Come and whisper in my ear
Give us dirty laundry

Kick em when theyre up
Kick em when theyre down
Kick em when theyre up
Kick em when theyre down
Kick em when theyre up
Kick em when theyre down
Kick em when theyre up
Kick em all around

We got the bubble-headed-bleach-blonde who
Comes on at five
She can tell you bout the plane crash with a gleam
In her eye
Its interesting when people die-
Give us dirty laundry

Can we film the operation?
Is the head dead yet?
You know, the boys in the newsroom got a
Running bet
Get the widow on the set!
We need dirty laundry

You dont really need to find out whats going on
You dont really want to know just how far its gone
Just leave well enough alone
Eat your dirty laundry

Kick em when theyre up
Kick em when theyre down
Kick em when theyre up
Kick em when theyre down

Kick em when theyre up
Kick em when theyre down
Kick em when theyre stiff
Kick em all around

Dirty little secrets
Dirty little lies
We got our dirty little fingers in everybodys pie
We love to cut you down to size
We love dirty laundry

We can do the innuendo
We can dance and sing
When its said and done we havent told you a thing
We all know that crap is king
Give us dirty laundry!

Don Henley hit it right when he did this song. Thats why alot of newspapers have such a large subscription base.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Are you for real? Undeniable truths? Just because a member of a particuler group says all the fuzzy wuzzy things he wants about his group does not make it so. Stalin could have gone on for hours about all the good things that he did for the Soviet Union and not talk about one bad thing and make it seem like he was the best man in the world and the Communists where saints. I really don't get you man.....You seemed to look at only what you want to see. You first attack me in this thread and I completely bust you down with your theory then you fly in with this remark. Did you miss the remarks I made saying I agree with a lot of what he had to say?



Um......are you talking about yourself....because it sure sounds like it.



So because he is a member of that group makes him a leading spokes person for it and his ideas are unquestionable? I guess my sources and ideas are invalid and hey, lets forget my personal experiences aswell, because hey....they are worthless .



All I have to say is there is no debating with you at all. All you do is try and attack personally without providing ANY info......actually wait....you provide mis-information.

Well you didn't ask, but my point of view and my opinions on Islam have been formed over the past 15 years of personal experience living and working in Muslim countries including Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Yemen (the home of Bin Laden) and Azerbaijan. That's where and how I have formed my opinions on Muslim people and THEIR values (not the values of radicals, even when those radicals happen to have a significant amounts of followers doing evil in their name and in the name of Islam.

I know enough to separate what is done, perversely, in the name of a religion from the values that religion and its followers represent.

You pretend to understand and even agree with posts such as sky7i's, but only to a point, because you always qualify your agreement, with a 'but' and invariably wind up concluding that Islam is somehow flawed.

Now sky7i has shared his background and basis for opinion (which you so open mindedly and respectfully refer to as "all the fuzzy wuzzy things he wants about his group"), and I happen to think he is well qualified to provide this board with a ton of insight.

Now, you also know my background and why I don't see Islam as evil while recognizing that evil is done because individuals and even governments have perverted the values of the religion - AS HAS BEEN THE CASE WITH EVERY RELIGION - EVEN CHRISTIANITY AS RECENTLY AS IN KOSOVO AND NORTHERN IRELAND.

Now would you be kind enough to share with us your "sources and ideas" and "personal experiences" that make you more qualified than sky7i to convince us that your POV is so much more valid?

Educate me.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Now, you also know my background and why I don't see Islam as evil while recognizing that evil is done because individuals and even governments have perverted the values of the religion - AS HAS BEEN THE CASE WITH EVERY RELIGION - EVEN CHRISTIANITY AS RECENTLY AS IN KOSOVO AND NORTHERN IRELAND.

I am beginning to think that you dont even read my post, all you do is see that I posted and then write something to counter my ideas. How many times have I said that I don't think Islam is EVIL, WRONG, or BAD? How many times have I said that all religions have gone throught this. I am done discussing this with you.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I am beginning to think that you dont even read my post, all you do is see that I posted and then write something to counter my ideas. How many times have I said that I don't think Islam is EVIL, WRONG, or BAD? How many times have I said that all religions have goen throught this. I am done discussing this with you.

A the favorite tactic of posters who have been caught. "I am done discussing this!" But please share with us your "sources and ideas" and "personal experiences".

I do (incredulously) read your posts. Do you read what you write?

For you to say that "I don't think Islam is EVIL, WRONG, or BAD" is a bit confusing since you wrote the following:

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

There is no denying that there is a global push within the Extremist Islamic world to meet certain political and religious objectives. If there wasn't, there wouldn't be these global attacks around the world in the name of Islam. You try and paint a picture that Islam is this all accepting religion where people are respected universally. That is not the case in many Islamic countries. There is not the tolerance that you suggest.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

We could look at all the Middle Eastern and African Islamic countries that use Islam as a way of control and power. The speading of Wabahism thoughout these countries. On a personal note, I know how women can be treated as chattel even here in Canada within the Islamic realm.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

The Islamic community needs to make the changes and stand up to these radical beliefs with an overt attempt at doing so and to be frank, I do not see that happening.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Until I see a change in attitude in general (mostly abroad) and by many governments not to mention people that I know personally I will continue to believe in what I have posted above.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

A the favorite tactic of posters who have been caught. "I am done discussing this!" But please share with us your "sources and ideas" and "personal experiences".

I do (incredulously) read your posts. Do you read what you write?

For you to say that "I don't think Islam is EVIL, WRONG, or BAD" is a bit confusing since you wrote the following:

Haha, so it even looks like you are denying that there is even radicalism in Islam. This is why I am done talking with YOU, I will discuss this with other people if they want but just not you.

Good day.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Haha, so it even looks like you are denying that there is even radicalism in Islam. This is why I am done talking with YOU, I will discuss this with other people if they want but just not you.

Good day.

Haha? - Wow - you really got me good there. I'm bruised by your intellect!

I guess it is you that needs to brush up on your reading comprehension because I clearly and repeatedly wrote that there are radicals who claim to act in the name of Islam but that those radicals don't represent the values of the religion. You, on the other hand, see those radicals as legitimate representatives of Islam and let that influence your opinion of all Muslims around the world.

You've been pwned by sky7i (and to a lesser extent by me - someone with years and years of life experience on which to base a informed decision) and now you're afraid/embarrassed to share with the forum what you touted as your "sources and ideas" and "personal experiences" from, which you've formed your opinions.

You're done talking to me about this with me? Fine. Why actually try to understand the issue and learn from people with actual insight into this complex issue, such as sky7i, when you can hang on to your beliefs, as misguided as they are?

I feel sorry for you and pray that one day you open your mind to gain an understanding of such a divisive and important issue.

[sky7i]

Jolinar asks whether I think he's been close-minded.

It's hard to say because his ideas are, at least from what I've read, a bit vague and contradictory. On the one hand, he says he doesn't think Islam is evil, wrong or bad. On the other hand, he looks at the bad stuff done in the name of Islam and takes that as representative of the overall group, even though it can be proven rather easily that the radicals are a very small percentage, and that the radicals are repeatedly, loudly, and emphatically rejected by the established, traditional majority who are the legitimate interpreters of the tradition. There's a bit of guilt-by-association going on here, which leads to the idea that Muslims are guilty until proven innocent.

So, I think Jolinar is sincere. He's not a hatemonger and there are many people much more close-minded than him. However, I don't think he's properly absorbed the implications of or the significance of the information I provided -- the links and articles given are rooted in scholarship, expert knowledge, and credible research, not my "fuzzy wuzzy" subjective feelings. I don't look at Muslims as one big monolithic group -- there are extremely good Muslims, Muslims who do much evil, and the bulk of us fit somewhere in between. I do have a duty to do what I can to make all the communities I am part of -- Muslim, Canadian, British, those of South Asian ancestry, professional -- better as much as I can, but I am not responsible for the sins of any other human being and I don't want to be a position where me or my faith is "guilty until proven innocent" based on very flimsy, unrepresentative data.

Most of all, I blame the media owners, because they really haven't done their job, and some of them (like the Asper family which owns most Canadian newspapers, Conrad Black when he was high and mighty, Rupert Murdoch, etc.) have an agenda and deliberately skew their reporting to support the causes dear to them. And now that so much of the media is in corporate hands, truth and good research have given way to the bottom line. When the freakiest 2% of your community is given 95% of the media's attention, while the legitimate representatives go largely ignored, it's not surprising that many people will have a very unbalanced perspective.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by sky7i

When the freakiest 2% of your community is given 95% of the media's attention, while the legitimate representatives go largely ignored, it's not surprising that many people will have a very unbalanced perspective.

Well I will agree whole heartedly with you about the minority giving the majority a bad name. But the Muslim community in Canada has a large radical problem. A recent CBC poll found 80% of Canada's 700,000 Muslim community to be very content and happy in Canada. Very nice indeed.....but

***********
Asked about the arrests last summer of the 18 Muslim men and boys who were allegedly plotting terrorist attacks in southern Ontario, 73 per cent of the Muslim respondents said these attacks were not at all justified and 82 per cent said they had no sympathy for those who wanted to carry them out.

That leaves 18%......

Fully 12% of Muslim Canadians polled by Environics said the alleged terrorist plot—that included kidnapping and beheading the prime minister and blowing up Parliament and the CBC—was justified.

12% !!!!


That is a lot more than your 2% giving 98% a bad name. Europe has a bigger problem

[sky7i]

Polls are funny things. Here's another one, as reported in the Christian Science Monitor (the whole article is worth reading):

The survey, conducted in December 2006 by the University of Maryland's prestigious Program on International Public Attitudes, shows that only 46 percent of Americans think that "bombing and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians" are "never justified," while 24 percent believe these attacks are "often or sometimes justified."

Contrast those numbers with 2006 polling results from the world's most-populous Muslim countries – Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nigeria. Terror Free Tomorrow, the organization I lead, found that 74 percent of respondents in Indonesia agreed that terrorist attacks are "never justified"; in Pakistan, that figure was 86 percent; in Bangladesh, 81 percent.

Do these findings mean that Americans are closet terrorist sympathizers?

Oh my God! 24% !!!! Let's bring Shatner home and build a huge wall at the border.

The only accurate statistic to go by is the number of arrests/convictions made. And there have been remarkably few arrests made either in Canada or in the US since 9/11.

I can't believe that was an actual poll question-- how did the poll takers keep a straight face when asking such a stupid question? And how stupid would someone have to be to say 'yes' to that question, even if they did have such disturbing views? Though I have to say the idea of Harper being kidnapped is not a horrific one...

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by sky7i

Most of all, I blame the media owners, because they really haven't done their job, and some of them (like the Asper family which owns most Canadian newspapers, Conrad Black when he was high and mighty, Rupert Murdoch, etc.) have an agenda and deliberately skew their reporting to support the causes dear to them. And now that so much of the media is in corporate hands, truth and good research have given way to the bottom line. When the freakiest 2% of your community is given 95% of the media's attention, while the legitimate representatives go largely ignored, it's not surprising that many people will have a very unbalanced perspective.

If you're alluding to the Asper family's Jewish heritage as their 'agenda' then you're hurling the same kind of mud you're accusing others in this thread of hurling towards Islam.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by sky7i

The only accurate statistic to go by is the number of arrests/convictions made. And there have been remarkably few arrests made either in Canada or in the US since 9/11.

We all know thats not true. There is way more crime that happens than people get arrested or convicted for. You cannot base it on arrests and convictions. Besides, people can't be arrested for having radical ideas it is when they follow through on them. So this statement really doesn't make any sense to me.

Though I have to say the idea of Harper being kidnapped is not a horrific one...

Thats the second time you have poked jabs at Stephen Harper when he has nothing to do with the debate. Whats the deal with that?

Say you moved to Los Angeles to be close to family, to get a better job, to enjoy the climate, to escape Stephen Harper

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

If you're alluding to the Asper family's Jewish heritage as their 'agenda' then you're hurling the same kind of mud you're accusing others in this thread of hurling towards Islam.

Talk about selective reading.

Maybe you can dig-up Conrad Black and Rupert Murdoch's religion and suggest he's anti-whatever-that-is while you are at it.

[sky7i]

There is way more crime that happens than people get arrested or convicted for.

If you're talking about shoplifting or prostitution, then yes. If you're talking about blowing things up and killing people en masse, no.

You cannot base it on arrests and convictions. Besides, people can't be arrested for having radical ideas it is when they follow through on them.

Having radical ideas is not a crime-- if it were, then perhaps another 24% of the American population would be in prison, and the Asper family (see below) would be as well.

alluding to the Asper family's Jewish heritage as their 'agenda'

It's interesting how *you* singled out the Aspers' religious heritage, but not Conrad Black's or Rupert Murdoch's. Earlier I mentioned that I am very proud of the Muslims' record of protecting the Jews from virulent European anti-Semitism for centuries. Anyhow, in the Aspers' case I was refering to their draconian and unethical policies of:

(a) forcing local newspapers to run editorials promoting their own personal point of view on things like Israel and business policy AND forbidding the editors from publishing any editorials with an opposing point of view AS WELL AS forbidding the publication of letters from citizens with an opposing point of view -- dictating to the Canadian people, not informing or listening to them;

(b) firing employees who simply don't share their points of view on Israel, their pro-Jean Chretien views, and certain business issues;

(c) deliberately fudging Reuters articles that they reprint, illegally rewriting them to make the Palestinians look like the bad guys.

I strongly recommend that you read:
http://mediamatters.org/columns/200703010014
http://www.canwestwatch.org/

Canadian Journalists for Free Expression:
http://www.cjfe.org/specials/canwest/canwintro.html

Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting:
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1106

Given that so much of the media is concentrated in their hands, this leads to Canadians having a very distorted, imbalanced picture when it comes to the Middle East conflict, or to domestic issues of corporate or political malfeasance. Do you like being kept in the dark on important policy issues by a single family?

There are, incidentally, many Jewish voices who *do* take an honest look at the Middle East conflict.

[firebug]

Father and brother plead guilty. Sentenced to 25 years.

As reported in the G&M.

The included 'Agreed Statement of Facts' is terribly troubling.

[Pinner]

Weren't there two more of these types of incidents this week ?

[burn_this_city]

The whole story is digusting. Its sad that some people can't leave their cultural baggage at the door when they arrive in Canada.

[Huntingwhale]

I can only imagine how many of these events take place back in their native lands.

[HeartsOfFire]

Animals. Inhuman animals. Both the father and the brother.