Teen dead after alleged attack by father

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

The National Post put out an article today about the meaning of the hijab to a Toronto-area Imam:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=166911

Look beyond the National Post and you'll see widespread condemnation over the killing from Muslim organizations and average Muslims.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/loc...ub=TorontoHome

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...ional/Ontario/

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Cana...24145-sun.html

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

In Christian religion after many trial and errors with public stonings and Church administered punishment, they now seem pretty clear about any punishment for sins to be administered on judgement day by the Lord Jesus Himself.

You know, I generally like to keep clear of these religious discussions, but I had to chime in to say that I couldn't agree more.

There is no ambiguity in Christianity. Everyone knows exactly what will happen to us when we die and how our beloved saviour will punish us for ever and ever when we are dead.

[sky7i]

Greetings all,

I'm an Albertan; I grew up in a farm town east of Edmonton, played hockey, went to the U of A, then to law school. I consider myself to be 100% Canadian.

I'm also a Muslim. I've lived in the UK, Italy, and spent time in Pakistan. I've studied under some of the world's leading Islamic scholars in the UK while at Cambridge University.

So perhaps I can bridge the cultural gap here.

First of all, it's nice to see that not all of you are living up to the redneck stereotype. Some of you really are trying to take a fair look at this, and that is reassuring.



I realize that "Sharia law" has become a sort of bogeyman in the western press, where the only time we hear about it is when something truly bizarre happens in its name. There are places on earth where a ized versions of the Shari'a do lead to severe injustice-- the Taliban for example, or their forebears in Saudi Arabia. The key thing to remember here is that these are exceptions, not the rule, for Shari'a. The vast majority of Muslims -- even the ones who live in these places -- look down on the extremists as backwater nuts who are totally unaware of the sophisticated, classical teachings of the Shari'a.

There are many Western countries -- Haiti, Columbia, etc. -- which have very dysfunctional justice systems. This does not mean the Western legal tradition is generally corrupt; it just means that the people who are in charge of it in those countries are not properly qualified to understand, interpret, and implement it. The same thing goes for the Shari'a in parts of the Muslim world.



Now, to address a couple of specific comments:

Captain Crunch & Flames Addiction wrote:
"It is in Sharia law that its allowed and is often lightly punished or not at all. But its one of the more horrible aspects that we've seen."

"And whether or not he moved here to enjoy western freedom isn't the point. The point is that if you do not want your children to have that, then you don't move to a society that has that. And if you are born here and feel you have the right use violence to enforce a dress code, then there are other places to live. It's unacceptable here."

The Shari'a certainly DOES NOT allow anyone to be killed for not wearing a hijab; there is no legally mandated punishment. One of the main purposes behind the hijab is to protect women from men, and to harm someone for not wearing it is totally antithetical to that purpose. There are very few capital punishments in the Shari'a; and those are reserved for severe cases like murder. This is no different than if a Western man had killed his daughter for wearing a mini-skirt out in public-- the dress code is higher, but the real problem is not the dress code, it is that a man is overly controlling of his daughter. There are PLENTY of men like this in our Western culture; in law school we studied many chilling cases of domestic abuse and murder that happened right here in Alberta. It happens all the time here, so regularly that the media doesn't bother on reporting on it unless it's a case with special factors like this case with its supposedly religious angle. Note that here in Alberta, 38,000 (yes, 38,000) women needed shelter last year, and 25,000 were turned away: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/st...-shelters.html I assure you that the vast majority of these women are not Muslim, and that our society isn't really any better when it comes to their treatment. We are very selective in what we notice.

Secondly, the shari'a does not authorize anyone to take "justice" into their own hands. The father has a sacred duty to protect his child. This father who allegedly killed his daughter would be found guilty of murder in a properly functioning shari'a court. For a Muslim scholar's view on "honour killings", read http://www.newislamicdirections.com/...lings_revised/

Thirdly, it is not about "moving here to to enjoy Western freedoms". If you wander around Karachi or Lahore, you will find plenty of women who don't wear the hijab. Trust me, people there can be as narcissistic there as they are here.




Thor/Ford Prefect
But.... Islam is well known in its attitudes towards women, how they are treated quite badly in comparison to our western values. Separated from men at mosques, made to cover up to stop Muslim men from getting dirty thoughts, daughters being punished for the son's crime, gang rape punishments, girls not being allowed to be educated, etc..

Many people do carry stereotypes about Islam's treatment of women, but these are rooted more in myth and cultural misunderstanding than in fact. Each year, thousands of Western people convert to Islam, and the vast majority of these (by a 4-to-1 margin) are women. That would not be the case if Islam was inherently anti-women. Many Muslim saints write about God as a women, their divine Beloved; there is a strong feminine aspect to it.

To answer your specific complaints:
-Men and women pray separately at mosques, but this has nothing to do with male superiority. When we pray, we pray shoulder to shoulder and we bend over several times-- it's quite intimate. Most men, Western or Eastern, would be somewhat distracted from their prayers with a shapely rear-end just a few inches from their noses, and most women (Western or Eastern) would be uncomfortable with that too. Women generally prefer having a space to themselves. The general rule in most mosques is that women can enter the men's area, but men cannot enter the women's area.

-As for the hijab itself, it is not simply to 'prevent men from getting dirty thoughts'. Nothing can prevent that... men think about sex all the time, even hockey players. Both men and women are expected to dress modestly in order to faciliate a climate of respect towards each other. In traditional Muslim countries, the men also cover their hair (with a hat of some sort) and wear long, loose, full-length clothing. You can compare them here:

Men: http://flickr.com/groups/islam/pool/tags/men/page11/
Women: http://flickr.com/groups/islam/pool/tags/women/page37/

-"daughters being punished for the son's crime"
One of the most important principles in Islam is that people are responsible only for their own sins. No one can be held accountable for other people's sins. (This is a major difference from Christianity, in which sin is inherited from parent to child, and where Jesus, peace and blessings upon him, is supposedly made to pay for these sins.) The Quran explicitly condemns those who punish girls on account of their sex, and threatens punishment against those who value girls less than boys.

-"girls not being allowed to be educated"
The Quran prescribes education for women as it does for men, in explicit terms. In fact, the most famous universities in the Muslim world, such as those in Egypt and Morocco, were founded by women. Noted historian Ruth Roded recently wrote:

"‘If U.S. and European historians feel a need to reconstruct women’s history because women are invisible in the traditional sources, Islamic scholars are faced with a plethora of source material that has only begun to be studied. [ . . . ] In reading the biographies of thousands of Muslim women scholars, one is amazed at the evidence that contradicts the view of Muslim women as marginal, secluded, and restricted.’"

See this article for a really wonderful exploration of this topic, written by a Cambridge professor:
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/gender.htm


Everything I've written here is reflective of mainstream Sunni Islam, practiced by 85% of the Muslim world. Much of it also applies to the Shi'a. The proportion of extremists out there really is very small, but they get 95% of the media attention.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by sky7i

Thirdly, it is not about "moving here to to enjoy Western freedoms". If you wander around Karachi or Lahore, you will find plenty of women who don't wear the hijab. Trust me, people there can be as narcissistic there as they are here.
.

I don't doubt that. But again, I didn't say that they move here to enjoy Western freedom, but I asked why move here if you don't want you children to enjoy Western freedom.

To be a bit more general, why move to any free country if you don't want your children to be free to express themselves? As someone else mentioned, you can't put them in the ocean and not expect them to swim.

[sky7i]

The term "Western freedom" is very problematic, so I suggest we stop using it. Westerners are a very diverse lot, as are Easterners. You can't boil complex societies down to black-and-white like this. (Are not the Hutterites and the Amish totally Western? They have dress codes far more strict than the Muslims.)

Freedom too is not a black-and-white issue. Freedom to raise your children with your values is also part of the bedrock of Western society. Some Muslims come to Canada because they feel they have more freedom to practice their religion and raise their families with their own cherished values here. My ancestors moved to Canada because they lost everything in a war and didn't want to experience that again, and because they thought they could raise good Muslims here. (Some of the first Muslims that came here in the 1800s were Scottish Muslims, and Edmonton is home to a mosque almost as old as the city itself.) Most Muslims will agree that governance in some Muslim countries is seriously screwed up (and it should be noted that our Western governments have played a major role in screwing up those countries) and they find that in Canada they can practice their religion with less turmoil-- no one's going to attack us or mess with our government to control our oil (except maybe Dick Cheney).

Many Westerners too have their personal limits when it comes to self-expression. Say you moved to Los Angeles to be close to family, to get a better job, to enjoy the climate, to escape Stephen Harper, or out of a fear of wild moose, or whatever. While there, your wife decides to have a fling with some guy or perhaps even get involved in the p0rn industry. You might flip and do something crazy, stupid, and homicidal too; there are many, many murders in our society which involve some sort of sexual jealousy. But it would be foolish for the citizens of Los Angeles to ask "why did that guy from Prince George move to Los Angeles? If you don't want your wife sleeping with other people and enjoying our sexual freedoms, why move here? Adultery isn't illegal." It's really not the issue. The issue here is that a man seems to have flipped out, overreacted and senselessly killed someone he was entrusted to take care of. That is tragic and reprehensible not just to Westerners but to his co-religionists and to people in his homeland as well.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Thanks for your post sky7i. I agree with you that the majority of muslims and all people for that matter are good people and respect the essence of life. Contrary to what some other posters on CP might suggest. I also believe that Islam can be a very peaceful religion and is a peaceful religion in many countries and many homes. However, like most religions, problems present themselves when the populace bands together and or words within the teachings are equated to meet the goals of specific political motives. This happens in every religion (although I think buddhism may be an exception). It has ran it's course through almost all major religions and it appears that it is running its course through Islam at the moment. (And maybe resurfacing in the Bible belt of USA) There is no denying that there is a global push within the Extremist Islamic world to meet certain political and religious objectives. If there wasn't, there wouldn't be these global attacks around the world in the name of Islam. You try and paint a picture that Islam is this all accepting religion where people are respected universally. That is not the case in many Islamic countries. There is not the tolerance that you suggest. I could list pages of examples. Just a few:

The UK teacher who was tried for insulting Islam in Sudan because she let one of her student name their teddy bear Muhammad.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...114220,00.html

Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and officials were able to use portions of sharia law to help her case. It appears that the more secular government types were willing to work with the case saying that there was no intention to insult Islam where as according to the article " The country's top Muslim clerics have pressed the government to ensure Gibbons is punished, comparing her action to author Salman Rushdie's ``blasphemies'' against the Prophet Muhammad.
But that there is a problem in my mind. If you go by that rule one cannot speak openly against Islam for fear of being prosecuted for insulting islam. Western Idiology is founded on freedom of speech.

The Danish author who printed Cartoons about the prophet Muhammad. We all witnessed the world wide outrage of many many Muslims that called for the death of the author and to the West for that matter.

We could look at all the Middle Eastern and African Islamic countries that use Islam as a way of control and power. The speading of Wabahism thoughout these countries. On a personal note, I know how women can be treated as chattel even here in Canada within the Islamic realm. A father sets up an arrianged marriage to a counsin in the UK and ships her off there before she can finish her university. I know of men who wear western cloths with there hats on gangster style yet the women of the family have to were traditional Islamic clothing. I know of people who have escaped countries mostly in Africa who were looked away in Islamic jails inorder to facilitate there conversion.

It's strange that under Saddam there appeared to be much more liberal views and actual tolerance of other people, religions and cultures (as long they were in line with the baathist party.

I don't see these things occuring in such large numbers with other religions at the current time in History.

ADD: Oh, ya, I am probably going to be called a racist intolerant red neck for this post.

[sky7i]

"However, like most religions, problems present themselves when the populace bands together and or words within the teachings are equated to meet the goals of specific political motives. There is no denying that there is a global push within the Extremist Islamic world to meet certain political and religious objectives."

I agree that it is dangerous when religion is bent to meet political goals, rather than vice versa. And that is exactly what is happening in the extremist fringes of the Muslim world. Traditional Muslims are in full agreement with you here. This is why mainstream Islamic scholars have repeatedly condemned bin Laden; he is not a Islamic scholar, but more of a vigilante that selectively quotes from scripture to support his political objectives. See for example:

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
http://www.ammanmessage.com/


"If there wasn't, there wouldn't be these global attacks around the world in the name of Islam."

The key thing to remember is that these actions are not done by people who are qualified to speak in the name of Islam. They are not graduates of Islamic seminaries; they are mostly engineers and angry young men who despise their own governments and the West who supports these governments. (You can bet that there would be a lot of angry young American men if some foreign regime propped up a corrupt and brutal government in America, and that religion would be conscripted to the cause of overthrowing this government.) The qualified Islamic religious scholars are unanimous in condemning all forms of terrorism, and that is what matters.

Also, it's a bit much to say that there are "global attacks around the world". There are pockets of terrorism here and there, but in terms of the number of people killed it is not that significant statisically, especially when compared to the number of deaths of innocent civilians that could be attributed to US foreign policy. It has been calculated that Muslims were involved in only 3% of the lethal conflicts of the last 100 years, despite making up 20% of the world's population.


"A father sets up an arrianged marriage to a counsin in the UK and ships her off there before she can finish her university. I know of people who have escaped countries mostly in Africa who were looked away in Islamic jails inorder to facilitate there conversion."

Under Islamic law, a women cannot be married against her will. Muslims come from many different cultures; not everything in these cultures is Islamic, just as not everything in a Christian country can be said to Christian. For example, in many Pakistani marriages, the bride's family still gives the groom a dowry as Hindus have traditionally done, but under Islamic law it is the groom which is supposed to give the wife a dowry for her own personal benefit. There are many Muslims who are not particularly well-educated with regards to their religion. You can't blame the religion for people who flagrantly ignore its rules.


"I know of men who wear western cloths with there hats on gangster style yet the women of the family have to were traditional Islamic clothing."

They could be ignorant men as described in the last paragraph, or this could be a case where the women are simply more religious than their mates and choose to dress this way, as is often the case.



"The Danish author who printed Cartoons about the prophet Muhammad. We all witnessed the world wide outrage of many many Muslims that called for the death of the author and to the West for that matter."

Watching the media, it may have looked like there was a worldwide outrage, but in reality there were really only a few relatively small protests here and there. The coverage was all out of proportion. And most of these were not based on religious factors, but were fanned by government officials with grudges or as a way of deflecting attention away from their own deficiencies. See:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature...02/09/culture/

As for Gillian Gibbons -- well, that was farcical, but again at the root of it were personal grudges, not deeply held religious beliefs. Apparently the secretary at the school was fired and decided to get back at the school by reporting Ms. Gibbons to certain immature elements in government who were looking to pick a fight with the British government over its policies towards Sudan. As Ms. Gibbons herself said, most Muslims have no problem with her and she doesn't want this to reflect badly on them.


"You try and paint a picture that Islam is this all accepting religion where people are respected universally.
I don't see these things occuring in such large numbers with other religions at the current time in History."

Islam has a relatively great tradition of tolerance. I'm glad that Muslim countries were able to offer refuge to the Jews during centuries of persecution from European Christians, and that Christian minorities thrived in many parts of the Muslim world, even when they were being persecuted by other Christians. Islamic theology accepts all the great religious figures -- Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mary, peace upon them all, and quite possibly Confucius, Krishna, and the Buddha as well. It is true that thanks to a number of factors, both external and internal, several parts of the Muslim world have taken several steps backwards. But these factors are rooted in sociopolitical, human shortcomings, not in the religion itself, and I am optimistic that one day things will be back on track and everyone will look back on this stage of history as a brief time when the Muslim world went through a very difficult and uncharacteristic period.

I invite you to check out this monumentally important document, a letter addressed to Christian leaders everywhere and signed by major representatives *from every sect in Islam*:

http://acommonword.com

Major things like this never get the press they deserve; the press prefers to dwell on sensationalisic oddities that sell newspapers and boost ratings.


"I am probably going to be called a racist intolerant red neck for this post."

No, I think you're an average Canadian, a little misled by the inadequacies of the media but generally reasonable. I don't think you would spit on me, deny me entrance to your business, or give me shifty looks, as has happened elsewhere. I did notice that you didn't jump to the conclusion that the father allegedly killed his daughter simply because of her refusal to wear the hijab, as many have done. (We'll have to wait for the courts to determine exactly what happened, but my best guess is that he didn't mean to kill her, that he snapped and is probably dying of regret inside.) I'm glad we've been able to have a civil discussion.

Now, let's say a prayer for those 25,000 abused women and children here in Alberta who have no shelter to turn to, shall we?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by sky7i

Say you moved to Los Angeles to be close to family, to get a better job, to enjoy the climate, to escape Stephen Harper, or out of a fear of wild moose, or whatever. While there, your wife decides to have a fling with some guy or perhaps even get involved in the p0rn industry. You might flip and do something crazy, stupid, and homicidal too; there are many, many murders in our society which involve some sort of sexual jealousy. But it would be foolish for the citizens of Los Angeles to ask "why did that guy from Prince George move to Los Angeles? If you don't want your wife sleeping with other people and enjoying our sexual freedoms, why move here? Adultery isn't illegal."

That's a pretty stacked deck you are playing with there.

If the dude in your scenario moves to LA knowing full well that it's de rigeur for the wife to screw around and dabble in the porn biz then he's not in a position to bitch or kill her if it happens. He knows what he's getting into (and what might potentially get into his wife) when he moves there.

But whatever...

Tell us about the Scottish Muslims in Edmonton. I've never heard of that.

[jolinar of malkshor]

I appreciate your point of view on the topic sky and I agree with a lot of what you have to say but I dont agree with you that these extremist ideas and the idea that men are superior than women are isolated to a group of angry engineers. One cannot argue that many Imams and clerics from many countries preach extremism. These ideas are coming from educated so called scholars. Good examples are the home grown terrorists in the UK.

Like I said, I believe Islam can be a peaceful religion, just like Christianity is in most cases. But you find these elements even in Christianity. The problem that I find is that it is much more prevalent in Islam than modern day Christianity.

Have you ever read "On the Road to Kanadahar"? The author tells about an old lady that he came across in Afghanistan who the day before had been beaten to death by an angry mob from the village. The lady had been walking around the village square babbling about things and tearing pages from a book. Someone said that she was tearing pages from the Koran so a large group of people formed and beat her to death for insulting the holy book. The author went to the same spot the next day where the lady was murdered and picked up some pages that were ripped from the book. It was not from the Koran, not even a religous book. Regardless, even if it was from the Koran, no one deserves death. There are many of these examples available.

Again, I do not have a problem with Islam, I have a problem with the way many of the followers interpret the meaning and implement what they believe is the proper course of action. And I would say the same thing about Christianity if the same kind of human rights abuses were occuring to propel that religion. And I am talking about the present not the past. Like I have said every religion has gone through the same kinds of darkness.

Ultimately these things will not change with pressure from outside sources. The Islamic community needs to make the changes and stand up to these radical beliefs with an overt attempt at doing so and to be frank, I do not see that happening.

[sky7i]

"These ideas are coming from educated so called scholars. Good examples are the home grown terrorists in the UK."

No, they most certainly are not. None of the terrorists involved in the UK attacks were under tutelage of Islamic scholars or had any links to Islamic seminaries. They really are just a bunch of disaffected, angry, disturbed young men lashing out at what they see as extreme political injustices. In virtually all of the cases, even the spouses and families were totally unaware of what these men were up to; they are as representative of Islam as Tim McVeigh is representative of Catholicism. You can very easily find British imams speaking up against this sort of thing, for example at http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/


Similarly, the mob you describe is obviously just a bunch of angry, mostly illiterate, very simple-minded people. The shari'a is very emphatic about the rule of law and the primacy of the court system and in NO circumstances allows mob "justice". In any case, even if she were doing such a thing, it would not be a capital offense. You have to remember that Afghanistan is a war-torn area where many people do not have even a primary school education and where there are many influences other than Islam at work, such as the pashtunwala tribal code.

"overt attempt at doing so and to be frank, I do not see that happening."
Well, keep on learning. The reason you don't see this happening is because you aren't familiar enough with the subject matter to distinguish between what Islamic law really teaches and what some people do in its name, between religion and culture, and between educated scholars and crazy peasants. The media have done a very poor job explaining any of this, so it is not surprising that you are so misinformed. I think you would find this article particularly helpful:
http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/wtc-heresy.html

RoughUnderoos
The first Muslims who came to North America were probably African slaves, although some scholars believe that Chinese Muslim admiral Zheng He "discovered" North America even before Columbus did. (See: http://www.economist.com/books/displ...ory_id=5381851 )

However, the first documented cases of Muslims is in the 1800s, in a government census: "Thirteen years before the Fathers of Confederation created Canada, a teenaged bride of Scottish origin, Agnes Love, gave birth to the first Muslim born in the territory that was to become Canada: James Love, named after his father, was born in Ontario in 1854. He was the eldest of the eight children of James and Agnes Love. The youngest one, Alexander, was born in 1868, one year after the Canadian confederation was formed.
Another couple, John and Martha Simon, described as "Mahometans" in government documents circa 1871, migrated from the United States and settled in Ontario. Like James and Agnes Love, they were of West European origins: John was English and Martha French."

The first purpose-built mosque in Canada was built in Edmonton -- by a women's group. You can read about it here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1081225
It now resides in Fort Edmonton; you can see it in this photo:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1159/...5bcd25ec_b.jpg

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by sky7i

No, they most certainly are not. None of the terrorists involved in the UK attacks were under tutelage of Islamic scholars or had any links to Islamic seminaries. They really are just a bunch of disaffected, angry, disturbed young men lashing out at what they see as extreme political injustices. In virtually all of the cases, even the spouses and families were totally unaware of what these men were up to; they are as representative of Islam as Tim McVeigh is representative of Catholicism. You can very easily find British imams speaking up against this sort of thing, for example at http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/

I am not saying the people that perpetrate the attacks are Islamic Scholars, they are taught by such. As much as you want to say they weren't, they were.

Similarly, the mob you describe is obviously just a bunch of angry, mostly illiterate, very simple-minded people. The shari'a is very emphatic about the rule of law and the primacy of the court system and in NO circumstances allows mob "justice". In any case, even if she were doing such a thing, it would not be a capital offense. You have to remember that Afghanistan is a war-torn area where many people do not have even a primary school education and where there are many influences other than Islam at work, such as the pashtunwala tribal code.

You are proving my point for me. Like I have said over and over, it is not the actual religion os Islam it is those who carry out what they deem required under the guise of Islam, and there are a many many people that do this.

I think one of the big problems in the Islamic world and the lack of guidance is the fact there is not one real leader like most religions have. It is very segmented IMO.

[sky7i]

"I am not saying the people that perpetrate the attacks are Islamic Scholars, they are taught by such. As much as you want to say they weren't, they were."

Ok... give me the names of these "scholars" and tell me what their credentials are-- the details of their ijaza, please.

"it is not the actual religion os Islam it is those who carry out what they deem required under the guise of Islam, and there are a many many people that do this."

As you are sort of aware, what some people believe Islam says may have nothing to dow with what Islam actually is. My point is that you can't blame Islam in general for what people who misinterpret it do. That is your key mistake.

"I think one of the big problems in the Islamic world and the lack of guidance is the fact there is not one real leader like most religions have. It is very segmented IMO."
Actually, it is far less fragmented than Christianity. There is no Pope of Islam, but there is an established scholarly tradition-- truth in Islam is determined by a consensus of the scholars, just as it is in the Western university tradition which is based on old Islamic institutions. (Oxford and Cambridge were modeled after Al-Azhar; even the tradition of wearing robes at graduation and the style of tutelage have roots in Muslim universities.) If you want to see what the scholars really have to say, you can check out the website I mentioned earlier, which contains a document signed by leaders from every sect: http://acommonword.com

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by sky7i

Ok... give me the names of these "scholars" and tell me what their credentials are-- the details of their ijaza, please.

When quoting another post highlight the text and push the wrap text in quote button.

As for the above quote, are you saying that the people who run the mosques and teach there are not religious scholars? Because I would consider anyone who teaches something a scholar.

As you are sort of aware, what some people believe Islam says may have nothing to dow with what Islam actually is. My point is that you can't blame Islam in general for what people who misinterpret it do. That is your key mistake.

True, but there are a lot of people apparently mis-interpreting it along with many governments.

Until I see a change in attitude in general (mostly abroad) and by many governments not to mention people that I know personally I will continue to believe in what I have posted above. Again, I thank you for your perspective.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I think one of the big problems in the Islamic world and the lack of guidance is the fact there is not one real leader like most religions have. It is very segmented IMO.

Who is the real leader of Christianity?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Who is the real leader of Christianity?

I agree that there is no leader of Christianity, but most major Christian groups have a hiearchy and decisions are made from the top up. There is more of a clear line of command so to speak.

[sky7i]

As for the above quote, are you saying that the people who run the mosques and teach there are not religious scholars? Because I would consider anyone who teaches something a scholar.

A scholar isn't "anyone who teaches something"-- not in Eastern societies and not in Western societies. A scholar is someone who has the proper credentials to teach something, and who is recognized by the community of scholars as being one of them. If you want to be a scholar here (or there), you go to graduate school and get a PhD (or ijazah) or you display such remarkable genius that scholars recognize you for it.

A mosque may or may not be led by scholars; it is not a requirement. The imam is not a 'priest' (there are no priests in Islam) and not necessarily a scholar; he (or she, in a women's mosque) is more of an administrator who simply keeps track of the prayer times, makes sure the place is clean, maybe does a little informal counseling etc. Scholars are usually affiliated with universities. For example, this man is both a leading scholar (at the U of Cambridge) and the imam of the Cambridge mosque; they are two different roles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Winter

Now, even the imams in the UK are not radical. There were two mosques (out of a couple thousand) that were taken over by radical preachers for a few years in the UK: the Finsbury Park mosque and one other one which I can't remember. Neither of these preachers are scholars -- one (Omar Bakri) is a former afghan fighter/college dropout with no qualifications, and the other (Abu Hamza) is a former London SoHo nightclub bouncer. Muslims look at these people the way that most Westerners look at David Koresh. They and their loony followers are not allowed in other mosques (they pray in the streets outside) and now even control of those two mosques has been put back in the hands of traditional Muslims.

Until I see a change in attitude in general (mostly abroad) and by many governments not to mention people that I know personally I will continue to believe in what I have posted above.

The media isn't going to give you an accurate picture of what's happening abroad. If you have the time and resources, spend some time in Egypt, Morocco, Bosnia, Indonesia, India, Western China, Mali, or Senegal and you will change your mind.

British and Muslim? is worth a read, if you want to learn about how Muslims are interpreting their Western identities.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by sky7i

The media isn't going to give you an accurate picture of what's happening abroad. If you have the time and resources, spend some time in Egypt, Morocco, Bosnia, Indonesia, India, Western China, Mali, or Senegal and you will change your mind.

I would love to visit all those places. I would also love to visit Iran and Afghanistan, but I am afraid that I would never return. I have also met people from a lot of those places and it hasn't chanded my opinion.

[sky7i]

There are certain areas in Afghanistan which may be dangerous -- it's a war zone, after all -- but many people there and in Iran would greet you with warmth and traditional Muslim hospitality. Here are the reflections of a sensitive Danish architect who visited Iran recently. Check out his wonderful set of photos from Isfahan, in particular you may enjoy this lovely shot.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by sky7i

There are certain areas in Afghanistan which may be dangerous -- it's a war zone, after all -- but many people there and in Iran would greet you with warmth and traditional Muslim hospitality. Here are the reflections of a sensitive Danish architect who visited Iran recently. Check out his wonderful set of photos from Isfahan, in particular you may enjoy this lovely shot.

I recommend Places In Between by Rory Steward.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Until I see a change in attitude in general (mostly abroad) and by many governments not to mention people that I know personally I will continue to believe in what I have posted above. Again, I thank you for your perspective.

And there you have it!

Faced with a goodly number of rational, well written, informed, patient and educational posts by sky7i, JoM admits that when confronted with undeniable truths, he is going to keep believing what he believes.

Way to have an open mind and to demonstrate a willingness to actually LEARN.

I particularly enjoyed the way JoM dismissed sky7i's posts as little more than a different 'perspective'. sky7i brought impressive credentials and information from numerous sources, in addition to his own personal experience, and JoM who just trots out stereotypes and ancedotal evidence can only say "thanks for the perspective"?

I'd like to thank sky7i for sharing his knowledge and background with Islam with this Forum. Its too bad that some posters are too closed minded to actually benefit from the posts.

'The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn'.