China - Superpower

[RedMan12]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Is there a mirror around your place?


No, China is MORE likely to use them if none/few of their neighbours have them. They are LESS likely to use them if the country their about to be aggressive upon has their own nuclear weapons.

I'm not advocating that every country obtain nuclear weapons; obviously it would be best if no country had them. But, realisitically, if China faces an opposing regional power with nuclear weapons, it is bound to step far more carefully than if it has nuclear supremacy over all regions south/east of them.

I don't get why you think that IF China's competitors in the region had nukes THEN China would certainly use them? This makes no sense...

India and Pakistan?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by RedMan12

India and Pakistan?

Thats why I said south/east. Pakistan, India, and Russia would be North and West. Thanks for the IR lesson.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by RedMan12

India and Pakistan?

Doesn't this fact also fly in the face of the opposing logic? India and Pakistan have had nukes for decades, has this made China _more_ likely to use nuclear weapons in a confrontation? If anything India is acting to counter-balance China to it's south-west, as opposed to endangering the region.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Doesn't this fact also fly in the face of the opposing logic? India and Pakistan have had nukes for decades, has this made China _more_ likely to use nuclear weapons in a confrontation? If anything India is acting to counter-balance China to it's south-west, as opposed to endangering the region.

When you say decades how long are you talking? India actually test fired their first nuclear weapon in 1998 two days after pakistan. Not even 10 years get your facts straight.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Doesn't this fact also fly in the face of the opposing logic? India and Pakistan have had nukes for decades, has this made China _more_ likely to use nuclear weapons in a confrontation? If anything India is acting to counter-balance China to it's south-west, as opposed to endangering the region.

A few years after their first tests, India and Pakistan were on the brink of nuclear war. Just like I am trying to say China and Japan would be. If ever a Radical government gets into Pakistan the likely hood of a nuclear attack would greatly increase. And its not to much of a stretch of the imagination of a radical islamic government getting in, in Pakistan.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Ok lets arm Japan with nukes and start a show down with Japan and China. Makes lots of sense. If they have them, they are MORE likely to use them if they don't, duh. Doing this does nothing but put these to countries into the same sitiuation USA and Cuba where in. By keeping the nukes out of there and limited to very few nations you dont have to worry about itchy fingers. If China new Japan was in possession of nukes and some paranoid commie defence minister thought they were going to attack, China would use their nukes as a pre-emtive stike.

I agree with you that Japan can be trusted with nukes but all that would do is raise the tentions in the region. Not to mention the crazy neighbor N. Korea.

We had a showdown between the US and Russia for 40 years. Nothing happened. It takes one to hold the other back from using nuclear weapons. The US can't act as a detriment against China, so our best advice would be to get Japan going.

I don't really give a crap about tension; I would rather have Japan armed with nukes to prevent North Korea from having the free will to use them.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RedMan12

I still doubt Japan will ever get nuclear weapons. Lets just blow up all the world with nukes. Alls it takes is one country to start a chain reaction, thats why I doubt any country is going to launch nukes at anyone.

Did you guys even go to school? Grade 12 social? MAD?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Doesn't this fact also fly in the face of the opposing logic? India and Pakistan have had nukes for decades, has this made China _more_ likely to use nuclear weapons in a confrontation? If anything India is acting to counter-balance China to it's south-west, as opposed to endangering the region.

Not to mention that India and Pakistan have been opposing each other for years. I don't see either one threatening nuclear war.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

A few years after their first tests, India and Pakistan were on the brink of nuclear war. Just like I am trying to say China and Japan would be. If ever a Radical government gets into Pakistan the likely hood of a nuclear attack would greatly increase. And its not to much of a stretch of the imagination of a radical islamic government getting in, in Pakistan.

You're assuming a lot of stuff here...

China likes to take care of it's own. Should Pakistan and India start lobbing nukes at each other, it's doubtful China would interfere. Should China start lobbing nukes at anyone, (say Taiwan or something,) do you really think India and Pakistan would interfere? Should N. Korea start lobbing nukes, do you think anyone wants to interfere? The only two countries in SE Asia that balance each other out are India and Pakistan as they would lob nukes at each other. China and N. Korea don't really have anyone who would interfere at this point in time... except the US, who couldn't sustain another war effort, (although I'm sure such a war would get support, but I doubt they'd have people lining up to join a war gaone nuclear). So what does that leave you in the area, ready to defend the sovereignty of of a nation being attacked? Nada. Would China attack N. Korea if N. Korea got out of line? Since they're the ones who supplied the arms, and they wouldn't be the target of the attack, it's doubtful. N. Korea has historically only listened when Japan gets involved. Japan likes to appease the N. Koreans, but should they get out of line, there isn't a large threat coming from Japan.

If Japan and China went to the brink, that would make me happy. (At the brink, not over it.) Why you ask? Because it would teach China a lesson. Japan is one of the richest countries in the world, and everyone thinks they're weak. It would be nice for the other SE Asian countries to realize that Japan can hold it's own again, and see just whose side they're on. Right now, China doesn't give two ****s about anyone, even their own citizens. They need to be kept in line, and they need to see a nation willing to do so.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Azure

Did you guys even go to school? Grade 12 social? MAD?

I think this gets into strategic studies a little more than Grade 12, but either way, they don't really understand the concepts very well.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by FireFly

You're assuming a lot of stuff here...

China likes to take care of it's own. Should Pakistan and India start lobbing nukes at each other, it's doubtful China would interfere.

I'm not positive, but I think China and Pakistan do have a mutual assistance treaty of some kind. I've heard it mentioned in other debates, but I never actually looked it up before.

China also has a claim to a portion of India's northern frontier. They could use another India-Pakistan war as a reason to "liberate" parts of India. You know, all in the name of "peace keeping".

**edit: I just looked it up...
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/archive/i...p/t-22146.html

Besides political and diplomatic co-operation, the two countries are extensively involved in wide-ranging defence co-operation, particularly in the controversial area of nuclear weapons and missile technology.

http://www.ipcs.org/Pak_articles2.js...ortal=pakistan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3232581.stm

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english...ent_431695.htm

I think it's safe to say that they are definitely allies.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I think this gets into strategic studies a little more than Grade 12, but either way, they don't really understand the concepts very well.

Dont go around thinking that WE dont understand the concept. Very arrogant of you to even say that. Your the one coming off as some weirdo wanting China and Japan go to yhe bring just to teach them some kind of lesson. Nice.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'm not positive, but I think China and Pakistan do have a mutual assistance treaty of some kind. I've heard it mentioned in other debates, but I never actually looked it up before.

China also has a claim to a portion of India's northern frontier. They could use another India-Pakistan war as a reason to "liberate" parts of India. You know, all in the name of "peace keeping".

**edit: I just looked it up...
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/archive/i...p/t-22146.html



http://www.ipcs.org/Pak_articles2.js...ortal=pakistan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3232581.stm

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english...ent_431695.htm

I think it's safe to say that they are definitely allies.

Just proves that this Fire guy has no idea what he is talking about.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I think this gets into strategic studies a little more than Grade 12, but either way, they don't really understand the concepts very well.

Maybe. The ignorance is obvious.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Dont go around thinking that WE dont understand the concept. Very arrogant of you to even say that. Your the one coming off as some weirdo wanting China and Japan go to yhe bring just to teach them some kind of lesson. Nice.

No you don't understand the concept. We have China with nuclear weapons, and a communist regime that has shown no signs of being nice. Then you North Korea with a dictator that would love to bomb the **** outta the West. How do you control these two nations? By allowing Japan to significantly increase the size and strength of their military, and aquire nuclear weapons. Why? Because like the US/Soviet Union, Inda/Pakistan have shown, when MAD is in effect, no one wants to start a nuclear war.

Nuclear weapons were the only thing that prevented the US from attacking the Soviet Union. And likewise the other way around. They fought their battles through a proxy way - Vietnam and Afghanistan.

As wierd as it may sound, the more allied nations we have with nuclear weapons, the less the chance that a nuclear war will occur. North Korea and China won't be so quick to try and expand throughout Asia, if Japan has significant military strength, as well as nuclear power.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Just proves that this Fire guy has no idea what he is talking about.

Firefly would be a girl. The links that FA posted clarify the need for Japan to have nuclear weapons, even more. Especially since Pakistan and China can be considered allies, both with nuclear weapons. Japan, India and the US would do a fine job in keeping Pakistan, China and North Korea in check.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Just proves that this Fire guy has no idea what he is talking about.

Or you could read the links and find out for yourself.... A defense treaty does not say, 'sure! You get nuked and I'll start lobbing some at the country that nuked you.' It's a treaty for training, supplies, cooperation, etc. It's a threat that if you invade Pakistan, you'll have the Chinese to fight as well. It doesn't say anywhere that if Pakistan gets nuked, China will jump in. Only an idiot would agree to that. (Although, in the case of the US, because they are halfway across the world, it's unlikely the war would spread that far. When the war is fought within missile range, it's much different.)

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Dont go around thinking that WE dont understand the concept. Very arrogant of you to even say that. Your the one coming off as some weirdo wanting China and Japan go to yhe bring just to teach them some kind of lesson. Nice.

History can teach us all many lessons, but some people are just too thick-skulled to realize it. Everyone else learned form the Bay of Pigs fiasco, why didn't those in SE Asia? Sometimes you just have to experience the terror for yourself in order to understand what it is you're doing.

Japan, as the only nation to have ever experienced the effects of a nuclear weapon, (even one that is less than half of what they are today,) would not make a nuclear threat lightly. That they are thinking about doing it at all should tell you exactly what the situation over there is like. It's also a threat that others would not take lightly.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Is there a mirror around your place?


No, China is MORE likely to use them if none/few of their neighbours have them. They are LESS likely to use them if the country their about to be aggressive upon has their own nuclear weapons.

I'm not advocating that every country obtain nuclear weapons; obviously it would be best if no country had them. But, realisitically, if China faces an opposing regional power with nuclear weapons, it is bound to step far more carefully than if it has nuclear supremacy over all regions south/east of them.

I don't get why you think that IF China's competitors in the region had nukes THEN China would certainly use them? This makes no sense...

OMG! We agree Agamemnon!
Close the windows and lock the doors!

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

When you say decades how long are you talking? India actually test fired their first nuclear weapon in 1998 two days after pakistan. Not even 10 years get your facts straight.

Yeah, my bad. I meant to suggest that India/Pakistan had had tensions for decades, and despite this, upon acquiring nuclear weapons the chances of an exchange were extremely low. And still are.