Holocaust a "myth"/Move Israel to Canada

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

One big problem, the Italians and Greeks are a nationality, Jews are not. The Italians and Greeks both founded nations and grew from those lands. The Jews never had a historical nation, no matter how many ARAB cities you care to toss out there.

- Once again - the Book of Kings, Tax and Tribute records of Hammurabi, Nebucadnezer and the Pharohs - All point to the Kingdon of the Jews, a Jewish state. Just because is wasn't there in your recent memory does not mean it did not exist.

Jerusalem and Sfat were both founded by Jewish Kings.


Those boundries were defined by the peoples who lived in those countries and ruling class who over saw the regions. The world did not pull those countries out of their asses the way they did with Israel.

Tell that to the Iraqis about Kuwait, the Syrians about Lebanon and Jordan, I am sure they would agree that they helped define the boarders.

There was no royal family from Israel overseeing the region. Israel was a Zionist dream, one the UN felt was a good idea because of how badly the Jews got screwed over by the Germans.

Which is why they were given the worst, most desolate land that the UN could give them.


No, its not. At no time did a country of Israel existed prior to 1948. - Keep dismissing the archialogical evedince, maybe it will go away. - Again, Judiasm is a religion. A religion practiced all over the world. That does not make an ancient cities any more Jewish than they do Christian, or Aramaic, or Syrian, or Mesopotamian. -so I guess Rome isn't a Christian or Roman city?

Jews first came to the land of Israel as a nation, in the year 1272 BCE.
the Jews were exiled by the Romans (their second exile) from being an autonomous ruling kingdom in Israel in the year 70 CE.
Jewish communities continuously present, mainly concentrated in Jerusalem, Tsfat, Tiberias and Hebron.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

I never said they were strictly anything other than aincient established cities home to people who were not nomadic - wandering from place to place. Jewish communities were in Jerusalem, Tsfat, Tiberias and Hebron. Yes, Acco, Jaffa and Jericho were predominantly Arab cities.

Okay. learn how to use the quotes. This is getting more difficult than it has to be!

It should be pointed out that the "cities" you are refering to are one horse towns in today's context. But that is here nor there. The thing that is funny is the "Jewish communities". Used in context you'd see how small a number that really is in the big picture. Again, a small group, with a small following, do not deserve a "homeland" which they never had to begin with.

The forefathers were shepherds, the prophets were just that - Prophacy was a job back in the day - mainly advising kings.

Gotcha. Moses was not a shepherd, but a professional prophet. And I seriously doubt that a Jewish prophet was advising anyone back then. Jews weren't really on the roadmap as people to listen to if you know what a I mean.

(they have one - Canada - just ask them)

Weak!

-At that time no, but that does not mean that there never was a Jewish State - The Romans came with more spears and the rest is history.

When was there ever a Jewish State (and I'm not talking about south Florida)? There is no recorded documentation of there ever being a Jewish State. Jews were slaves and peasants. I do not recall any mention of a Jewish State at any time in history based on my studies.

So which is it - either it is an empty land with wandering bands of nomads or it is bulging with cities and communities and homes everywhere.

The example was a present day example. Back in the day it would have been a blood bath if anyone tried that.

"Jews actually went out of their way to avoid purchasing land in areas where Arabs might be displaced.
They sought land that was largely uncultivated, swampy, cheap and, most important, without tenants. In 1920, Labor Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion expressed his concern about the Arab fellahin, whom he viewed as "the most important asset of the native population." Ben-Gurion said, "under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them." He advocated helping liberate them from their oppressors. "Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement," Ben-Gurion added, "should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price."2"

Some interesting stuff. They should have kept going and continued to buy their way to enough land to nation build. That would have been atleast respectable.

- So most would refer to you as a 'Calgarian' or 'Canadian', no one refers to you as 'Christian'. What does that mean then when people call me 'Jew' or 'Jewish-Calgarian/Canadian'? Italians born in Calgary still refer to themselves as 'Italian', where is the religious aspect in that. You can substitute Italian for Greek, Mexican, Indian, Irish....the list goes on.

Depends on the context of the question. I am who I am. When people ask me my background I am Canadian. When they ask me where I'm from I'm from Calgary, Alberta, Canada. When people ask me who I am, I tell them my name. I would expect you to answer the questions the same way, but I suspect you wouldn't. At no time do my religious belief system come into play, but I think for you, the opposite would be true based on our conversation here. That's fine, that's who you are. But I don't know of any other "race", "color" or "creed" that identifies their religion as who/what they are.

- It [Rome] is already there, and you can go visit if you like.

And so is Jerusalem. You didn't need to have a country created around it to visit it.

- Like Candian Federalism?

Exactly! Now you're catching on. Except on a much larger and more invasive way.

"Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. " Martin Luther King Jr. - 1968

Returning to live in their own land. No mention of nation building there. Feel free to go to Palestine, buy yourself a kibutz and party like its 5761!!!

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

-Once again - the Book of Kings, Tax and Tribute records of Hammurabi, Nebucadnezer and the Pharohs - All point to the Kingdon of the Jews, a Jewish state. Just because is wasn't there in your recent memory does not mean it did not exist.

They mention a Kingdom of the Jews, in the same language as the Kingdom of God. To me that means they transcend borders, much like they do today. I suspect that means the Jews were taxed for being Jews, which aligns with many of the tarrifs placed on the peoples of the time and the need for the censuses that took place so often (you know, the reason Mary and Joseph were in Bethlehem). Still no proof that a Jewish State ever existed.

Jerusalem and Sfat were both founded by Jewish Kings.

Great, and Mesa, AZ was founded by Mormons, but that doesn't make it a Mormon city. In fact, the Mormon faith is a huge minority in the population. A city is a relection of its population, and Jerusalem is a non-secular city because of its mixed ethnic makeup.

Tell that to the Iraqis about Kuwait, the Syrians about Lebanon and Jordan, I am sure they would agree that they helped define the boarders.

Thank you for agreeing with me. The people did indeed help with the boundaries. Or at least the ruling class did.

Which is why they were given the worst, most desolate land that the UN could give them.

And STILL they whine!

Keep dismissing the archialogical evedince, maybe it will go away.

What evidence? Please feel free to post a link to this mythical evidence that a Jewish State ever existed.

so I guess Rome isn't a Christian or Roman city?

No, cities in the western world are non-secular. They are melting pots of religionjs and cultures from all over the world. To define a city as being a "Catholic" city would do an injustice to its inhabitant. Rome is an Italian city, but because it is in Italy. Kind of like Calgary being a Canadian city because it is in Canada. I've never heard anyone refer to Calgary as a Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Islamic or Buddhist city, because it isn't. Its a combination of all those wonderful religions and people. That's what makes a community, is the diversity.

Jews first came to the land of Israel as a nation, in the year 1272 BCE.
the Jews were exiled by the Romans (their second exile) from being an autonomous ruling kingdom in Israel in the year 70 CE.
Jewish communities continuously present, mainly concentrated in Jerusalem, Tsfat, Tiberias and Hebron.

Great, and people first came to the Americas 50,000 years ago. No nation was established until 1776. People living in an area does not make it a nation. Establishment of a government and acknowledgement of being a collective by other governments makes you a nation. The Jewish State never existed under the rules used to define States, countries, etc.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

They mention a Kingdom of the Jews, in the same language as the Kingdom of God. To me that means they transcend borders, much like they do today. I suspect that means the Jews were taxed for being Jews, which aligns with many of the tarrifs placed on the peoples of the time and the need for the censuses that took place so often (you know, the reason Mary and Joseph were in Bethlehem). Still no proof that a Jewish State ever existed.

No, they ment - I conquored Jeroboam King of the Jews, or traded with Rehoboam King of the Jews, son of Solomon. These kingdoms had recognizable boundries - check out biblical maps.

I am working of the evedince. This is why you should never throw out your old university textbooks. I learned this in a biblical archiology class 15 years ago.

In biblical times kings knew where the boarders were.

Great, and Mesa, AZ was founded by Mormons, but that doesn't make it a Mormon city. In fact, the Mormon faith is a huge minority in the population. A city is a relection of its population, and Jerusalem is a non-secular city because of its mixed ethnic makeup.

I used those cities not as examples of Jewish cities, but as examples of Jewish ties to the area.

The Mormons have ties to Mesa AZ, but I dbout that they will call for a homeland there.

Great, and people first came to the Americas 50,000 years ago. No nation was established until 1776. People living in an area does not make it a nation. Establishment of a government and acknowledgement of being a collective by other governments makes you a nation. The Jewish State never existed under the rules used to define States, countries, etc.

The kingdom of the Jews did have an established government -a monarchy. It was alsorecognized by other governments - those of Egypt, Assyria, babylon, Greece and Rome - otherwise why record that you conquored it.

You are really maing me wor for this one, Lanny.

(I thought the Leaf Nationthing was funny, but then again I deal with them everyday.)

[Bleeding Red]

[QUOTE]It should be pointed out that the "cities" you are refering to are one horse towns in today's context. But that is here nor there. The thing that is funny is the "Jewish communities". Used in context you'd see how small a number that really is in the big picture. Again, a small group, with a small following, do not deserve a "homeland" which they never had to begin with.[QUOTE]

So....no nationhood or homeland for the Kurds, Tiebet, Macadonians, Cheneans.....solved a lot of the world's problems right there.

Don't forget to give Tiwan back to China and uwait back to Iraq.

Gotcha. Moses was not a shepherd, but a professional prophet. And I seriously doubt that a Jewish prophet was advising anyone back then. Jews weren't really on the roadmap as people to listen to if you know what a I mean.

Moses was Moses. Later prophets were advising Samson, Solomon, David, Saul, Jeroboam, Rehoboam, Ahaz.... yup, Daivd and Solomon, two lesser lights in history.

When was there ever a Jewish State (and I'm not talking about south Florida)? There is no recorded documentation of there ever being a Jewish State. Jews were slaves and peasants. I do not recall any mention of a Jewish State at any time in history based on my studies.

From 1200 - 722 BCE.

Some interesting stuff. They should have kept going and continued to buy their way to enough land to nation build. That would have been atleast respectable.

Tried to, Arabs started killing anyone who sold land to Jews.

Depends on the context of the question. I am who I am. When people ask me my background I am Canadian. When they ask me where I'm from I'm from Calgary, Alberta, Canada. When people ask me who I am, I tell them my name. I would expect you to answer the questions the same way, but I suspect you wouldn't. At no time do my religious belief system come into play, but I think for you, the opposite would be true based on our conversation here. That's fine, that's who you are. But I don't know of any other "race", "color" or "creed" that identifies their religion as who/what they are.

Because no one ever called you a 'Christian' in a derogatory way.As well, I suspect that you only have historical ties with Canada as opposed to with another country. Again, if you asked an Italian person their background do they answer "Italian" or "Italian-Canadian" or just Canadian.

and sos Jerusalem. You didn't need to have a country created around it to visit it.

Not true, I couldn't visit Old Jerusalem until after 1967 - no Jews allowed.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Thanks Bleeding, that makes total sense now.

You would be better served researching the topic yourself. Bleeding Red's perspective, although valid, is coming from a very pro-Israel stand point. There are other equally valid perspectives from the other cultures and nations in the area. Let's face it, people have been trying to figure this whole thing out for a long time. The absolute truth won't be found on a hockey forum.

Another thing I would point out is that the majority of Jordan do not identify themselves as "Palestinian". Aproximately 2.6 million people out of Jordan's 5.8 million people call call themselves "Palestinian", and most of them are refugees. In fact, Jordan is guilty of oppressing Palestinians the same way people accuse Israel of oppressing them.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

You would be better served researching the topic yourself. Bleeding Red's perspective, although valid, is coming from a very pro-Israel stand point. There are other equally valid perspectives from the other cultures and nations in the area. Let's face it, people have been trying to figure this whole thing out for a long time. The absolute truth won't be found on a hockey forum.

definetly. I am not the be all and end all on this. I get my info from years of school, other well informed people and well researched websites, boos, andpapers. People are fondof saying that every story has three sides - his side, your side and the truth. I can recommend some good pro-Israel sites and a few pro-Palestinian site for whomever is intrested.

Everyone - go read!

[Cowperson]

In fact, Jordan is guilty of oppressing Palestinians the same way people accuse Israel of oppressing them.

If I'm not mistaken, the Jordanians kicked the PLO "guests" out of their country in 1970 because they were acting like bad ass Griswald relatives on Christmas and planning something of a coup besides.

You can dress them up but . . . . .

Cowperson

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

definetly. I am not the be all and end all on this. I get my info from years of school, other well informed people and well researched websites, boos, andpapers. People are fondof saying that every story has three sides - his side, your side and the truth. I can recommend some good pro-Israel sites and a few pro-Palestinian site for whomever is intrested.

Everyone - go read!

Even within Israel, the opinions on the subject vary as much as they do here.

One miscellaneous point worth mentioning on the subject is that Arabs who live in Israel proper have a much higher standard of living than the majority in any of Israel's neighbours. Regardless of which side of the issue people lean towards, I think it is undeniable that Israel is much more valuable as a friend to the Palestinians than an enemy. If only they could get there...

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

In fact, Jordan is guilty of oppressing Palestinians the same way people accuse Israel of oppressing them.

If I'm not mistaken, the Jordanians kicked the PLO "guests" out of their country in 1970 because they were acting like bad ass Griswald relatives on Christmas and planning something of a coup besides.

You can dress them up but . . . . .

Cowperson

Yeah, but doesn't part of the land that the Palestinians claim as a homeland belong to Jordan right now? I know Jordan gave up their claim to the West Bank so that Palestinians could pursue a state there, but I think they still occupy some. Jordan could definitely do more to help.

[Cowperson]

Yeah, but doesn't part of the land that the Palestinians claim as a homeland belong to Jordan right now? I know Jordan gave up their claim to the West Bank so that Palestinians could pursue a state there, but I think they still occupy some. Jordan could definitely do more to help.

So . . . . according to the information in front of us, Jordanians stole land from them, treated them badly, kicked them right out of Jordan in fact . . . . . but strangely those same Palestinians don't blow up Jordan on a daily basis like they do Israel. Or even mention they're owed land by Jordan.

You gotta admire their single-mindedness. I guess.

Cowperson

[moon]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Once again, Israel is no more a fictional homeland for the Jews than Italy is a fictional homeland for the Italians, Greece is a fictional homeland for the Greeks.....etc.etc.

They rest of the world went out of it's way to create a lot of states - Syria, Iraq, Iran, Quatar, Saudi Araibia, Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait.

Calling Israel a fictional country is ignoring thousands of years of archiological evedince.

Really??

Please show me where the US/Britain created these states. They were created through the natural progression of world politics. Now if you want to prentend that Israel was created through this the process then we have a major issue but your comparission to these nations make s no sense to me. They managed to create their own nations without any of the BS that went on to create Israel.

they created those states because there were legitimate people that lived there not people that lived all over the world claiming to have some BS right to the land because people that believed in the sam ereligion as they did once lived there.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

What was so hateful in what I said? That his comments were reflective of his culture and environment? That his upbringing and education have lead him to where he is today? Or are you saying he developed these ideas all on his own?

If I am wrong in my comments, prove it. Show me where there is an out pouring of understanding to the Jewish plight by the Arab community! Show me where there is an Arab tear shed for the Jews every time an Arab straps TNT to his chest and detonates it in a Israeli market! Show me where there are protests against what this guy is saying! Show me where the other leaders in the Arab world are speaking out against him! Bring the proof as to where I am wrong.

Seems to me you're just talking out your ass like you always do.

Lanny jesus christ calm down, it was a joke. I agreed with you.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Lanny jesus christ calm down, it was a joke. I agreed with you.

Sorry, my bad!

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Interesting discussion fellas. Bleeding Red has presented his case well. I can't say I agree with all of it, but he has shown me somen things I didn't know. Jewish history appears to be written a little different from that which you get in history books it appears. But it is interesting to see the perspective from the other side.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Interesting discussion fellas. Bleeding Red has presented his case well. I can't say I agree with all of it, but he has shown me somen things I didn't know. Jewish history appears to be written a little different from that which you get in history books it appears. But it is interesting to see the perspective from the other side.

Jewish History, Christian History, Muslim History are all written differently than what we might consider actual history Lanny! You did very well explaining the FACTS...and nothing I read from BR changed fact from Jewish History. The problem with Religious propoganda is it changes to suit the times.
You are 100% correct about the fact that the Jewish State is a religious State plain and simple. Not one country that was mentioned in any post by anyone else has been created in the same fashion.
Past oppression of a religious group does not mean they are allowed a gimmie 10-20 Centuries later!

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by moon

Please show me where the US/Britain created these states. They were created through the natural progression of world politics.

Sooo...Syrian and Lebanese leaders go together in the '40s and decided to create a boarder and two seperate countries. Same with Iraq & Kuwait and the rest of the Araibian Peninsula?

The Ottoman Empire controlled the middle east from Turkey through to Iran until the end of WWI - as the losers, their empire was divided between the British and the French. After WWII they did not say "Hey let's have everyone vote on boarders for countries" They chose boarders based on what they thought were tribal lands (in the Peninsula), natural boundries, and what they already considered as an English / French Boarder. The British put leaders/kings in place (the Hashamite kings in Jordan, the Saud Royal Family, royal families in Kuwait, Quatar, UAE, Yemen). Through wars and coups the Assads came to power in Syria, Hussien in Iraq, the Ayatollah in Iran. Wars decided boarders btween Iraq & Iran and Iraq & Kuwait.

The UN studied & went along with the various plans to create many states - including Israel - from what was at the time a protectorate of two global powers (Britain & France) and had been a single Empire at the turn of the century. The natural progression of world politics.

Now if you want to prentend that Israel was created through this the process then we have a major issue but your comparission to these nations make s no sense to me. They managed to create their own nations without any of the BS that went on to create Israel.

see above

they created those states because there were legitimate people that lived there not people that lived all over the world claiming to have some BS right to the land because people that believed in the sam ereligion as they did once lived there.

The British & French created those states to suit their needs and those of the ruling leaders that they (the British & French) put in place.

The Jews are a legitamate People and were the majority living in the area that was designated by the UN partition plan. They were a part of continuous communities in Sfat or living on kibbutzs established at the turn of the century. The partition plan was based partly on population.

To read the history of the Peel Comission (which included a Canadian representative) and the UN Partition Plan:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...tion_plan.html

Yes, it is a pro-Israel site. You can try to find a lin to information on the partition plan at: www.pmwatch.org or www.washington-report.org.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Cheese

You are 100% correct about the fact that the Jewish State is a religious State plain and simple.

Try again.....Saudi Araibia, Quatar, UAE, Oman...those are religious sates governed by monarchs who adhear to the rule of Islamic (Shaira) law.

The Satte of Israel abides by secular law....otherwise you would not be able to purchase pork in Israel, work on Saturdays, go to clubs, hold gay-pride day events (try doing that anywhere else in the mid-east)....Rabbis may rule on an issue, but it is no more binding than the Pope ruling on an issue. The buc stops at the Supreme Court - just like in Canada. There is freedom of religion and freedom of speach. Like the BQ in Canada, Israel also has eleceted MPs calling for its destruction in the House. Politics in Israel just mean that there are more 'religious' people eleceted to the House - imagine if the Christian Heritage Party got 10 seats in parliment.

There is seperation of church and state in Israel.

Not one country that was mentioned in any post by anyone else has been created in the same fashion.

So they are all secular states with the rule of law and seperation of church (mosque) and state and are not Islamic States?

Past oppression of a religious group does not mean they are allowed a gimmie 10-20 Centuries later!

So....Canada can stop negotiating with First Nations peoples over fishing and hunting rights? They shouldn't be given a "gimmie" for what happened when Europeans came over.

And.....African-Americans should just get over that whole slave thing, the US dose not owe the any "gimmies"