Friedman's 31 - June 25. Dougie's role. Rieder UFA. Flames interested in Zucker?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

We trade an elite player for players we hope can fill a void eventually? Good players, but players who aren't nearly as rare and competent as Hamilton.

Yes, it's very similar. And we saw the character assassination from the Edmonton media following that trade, we're seeing the same now from our own media.

Hamilton wasn't an elite player though. When tasked with carrying his defense pair he was a mess. He played his best when he was second-fiddle to Giordano (or Chara).

Hall was an elite player. He carried his line, and made guys like RNH, Eberle, Draisaitl appear better than they actually were.

Hamilton, like Monahan and Nugent-Hopkins, is a Robin. Giordano, Gaudreau, and Hall are Batmans. Brodie has even had more success carrying his pair with scrubs like Russell, Stone, Engelland, etc.

Saying Hamilton is an elite player is like saying Justin Schultz is an elite player. No, he's a very talented player who can have success in the right situation. He wasn't Zach Werenski or even Hampus Lindholm. He COULD figure it out later in his career and become elite, but at present nothing about his play inspired confidence that if Giordano had gone down, he could even have held down the fort.

Let's consider it like this: We traded a 25yo Dman with 27 5v5 points for a 22 yo Dman with 23 5v5 points in about 150 fewer minutes AND only 1/3rd the amount of penalties.


If any part of the trade stings, as Treliving noted it's the Ferland part, because while Ferland isn't elite, his package of tools makes him pretty much a unicorn in the NHL.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

There is no chance Dougie could win a Norris? No chance one of the best statistical defenders in the game could win a Norris in his future?

Unless these things get determined by algorithms, no. Hamilton is not good defensively. So if he even gets nominated for the Norris, it will have to be on the back of putting up some big, big offensive numbers. 65+ points. For a few seasons in a row (the Norris is a reputation trophy). Maybe he can do that. But I doubt it.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

This forum is embarrassing itself. We are doing exactly what Oilers fans did in 2016 and we don't even see it. The same things we made fun of them for in the E=NG thread, we are doing ourselves.

You might need to take a bit of a step back here. The entire "forum" may not be holding the same opinion.

I think most will admit that the Flames traded the best player in the deal. But the Flames did get two someone known quantities back. So I don't think it's a good direct comparable to the Hall trade which was a pure one for one deal.

I don't think anyone thought Hall would become a potential Hart Trophy winner when he left Edmonton, and really...he likely doesn't if he stays there.

At this point you can no longer look back, if Hamilton starts winning the Norris every year and turns Carolina into the next Nashville...there's no guarantee he was going to do the same thing in Calgary. All you can hope for is that the guys coming back, can play their best in Calgary.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

That makes it even worse. We traded one of our most valuable trade pieces and we didn't even satisfy the team's most significant need. We downgraded our defense, upgraded our forwards, but offensively the team looks no better - worse perhaps if the production from Hamilton + Ferland > Hanifin + Lindholm.

Add to that, we significantly downgraded on our prospect pool. Nothing in this deal makes sense.

I don't necessarily disagree. But that doesn't change the fact that this deal was nothing at all like the Hall deal.

[savardandjokinen]

Bennett + Kulak for Zucker + 4th
Buyout Brouwer
Sign Rieder and Frk

Gaudreau-Monahan-Zucker
Tkachuk-Jankowski-Lindholm
Rieder-Backlund-Frolik
Frk-Shore-Foo
Hathaway, Lazar

Gio-Brodie
Hanifin-Hamonic
Stone-Andersson
Hogstrom/Wotherspoon

Smith
Rittich

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by savardandjokinen

bennett + kulak for zucker + 4th
buyout brouwer
sign rieder and frk

gaudreau-monahan-zucker
tkachuk-jankowski-lindholm
rieder-backlund-frolik
frk-shore-foo
hathaway, lazar

gio-brodie
hanifin-hamonic
stone-andersson
hogstrom/wotherspoon

smith
rittich

https://twitter.com/user/status/1011278135772483584

[rhino]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

There is no chance Dougie could win a Norris? No chance one of the best statistical defenders in the game could win a Norris in his future?

Did you think Hall could win a Hart at the time he was traded? Dougie is probably further along to winning a Norris than Hall was to winning a Hart at the time of their trades.

This forum is embarrassing itself. We are doing exactly what Oilers fans did in 2016 and we don't even see it. The same things we made fun of them for in the E=NG thread, we are doing ourselves.

As long as he has a giveaway/takeaway ratio like he has he will not win a Norris. The Norris is not awarded to the highest scoring defenceman.

[Badgers Nose]

As a mark Giordano fan, I think it's pretty cool that a player basically asked for a trade because of the possibility of not playing with Mark Giordano.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Hamilton wasn't an elite player though. When tasked with carrying his defense pair he was a mess. He played his best when he was second-fiddle to Giordano (or Chara).


Hall was an elite player. He carried his line, and made guys like RNH, Eberle, Draisaitl appear better than they actually were.


Hamilton, like Monahan and Nugent-Hopkins, is a Robin. Giordano, Gaudreau, and Hall are Batmans. Brodie has even had more success carrying his pair with scrubs like Russell, Stone, Engelland, etc.

Saying Hamilton is an elite player is like saying Justin Schultz is an elite player. No, he's a very talented player who can have success in the right situation. He wasn't Zach Werenski or even Hampus Lindholm.

Let's consider it like this: We traded a 25yo Dman with 27 5v5 points for a 22 yo Dman with 23 5v5 points in about 150 fewer minutes AND only 1/3rd the amount of penalties.

I agree with everything in your post except for this rather glaring error that continues to get repeated on this forum.

Monahan is a stud. Full stop. He was a stud before Gaudreau ever played a NHL game, and he has continued to be a stud even when not playing with Gaudreau.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

We trade an elite player for players we hope can fill a void eventually? Good players, but players who aren't nearly as rare and competent as Hamilton.

Yes, it's very similar. And we saw the character assassination from the Edmonton media following that trade, we're seeing the same now from our own media.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't you against analytics?

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't you against analytics?

no?

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

no?

Just checking, thought you were part of the hate analytics crowd. My bad.

I still highly disagree that this trade was bad though. Don't get me wrong, Hamilton is a fantastic player and will be missed here for his offensive abilities. But, we acquired ourselves two really solid assets who are both young and cost controlled. Both are RFA so we control how much these two are going to receive.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

https://twitter.com/user/status/1011278135772483584

So much for Frk n' Foo on the Shore line.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

There is no chance Dougie could win a Norris? No chance one of the best statistical defenders in the game could win a Norris in his future?

Did you think Hall could win a Hart at the time he was traded? Dougie is probably further along to winning a Norris than Hall was to winning a Hart at the time of their trades.

This forum is embarrassing itself. We are doing exactly what Oilers fans did in 2016 and we don't even see it. The same things we made fun of them for in the E=NG thread, we are doing ourselves.

It is you that is embarrassing yourself. And it seems to happen with almost every trade.

You have an extremely high opinion of Hamilton, which you are welcome to, but for many of us, his defensive play, and his compete level, preclude him from the "he is among the best defensemen in the league" discussions.

But regardless of opinions, your hyperbole is way over the top.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It is you that is embarrassing yourself. And it seems to happen with almost every trade.

You have an extremely high opinion of Hamilton, which you are welcome to, but for many of us, his defensive play, and his compete level, preclude him from the "he is among the best defensemen in the league" discussions.

But regardless of opinions, your hyperbole is way over the top.

Surely you can back this up?

This is one of the first trades since the Baertschi trade that I've flat out hated by the Flames. I was willing to be patient with the Hamonic trade.

[Beninho]

You can’t win the Norris playing defense like Hamilton has. He was a complete mess away from Gio. It’s almost like Gio is a Norris caliber defencemen. Canes have some decent Dmen but no Gio, we’ll see how Hamilton fairs.

[Erick Estrada]

I'm pretty sure Bingo months back posted some advanced stats that showed that Hamilton's advanced stats were better than Gio's and if someone looked at those alone they would think that it was Hamilton carrying Gio. We know that's not the case all the time but Gio isn't perfect and has had some tough times. It's very possible that Gio and Hamilton complemented each other as I don't care what anyone says here Hamilton isn't bad defensively and advanced stats prove that. I'm the first person to tell you that I don't believe advanced stats are the be all end all but if a guy has elite advanced numbers it's hard to paint a picture that he's a train wreck defensively like some are here.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Beninho

You can’t win the Norris playing defense like Hamilton has. He was a complete mess away from Gio. It’s almost like Gio is a Norris caliber defencemen. Canes have some decent admen but no Gio, we’ll see how Hamilton fairs.

Except that the Norris typically goes to one of the highest scoring dmen in the league regardless of their defensive ability.

Hamilton could win a Norris if he scores another 20 points. Will that happen in CAR? I'm skeptical.

Will Hamilton ever be considered one of the top 5 overall defensemen in the league? Not even close. His play in his own zone isn't dominant enough. Will he ever be considered one of the top 5 offensive defensemen in the league? I think that's possible.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I pretty much have no doubt that Hamilton is capable of 60+ points in the right situation. I'm not sure Carolina is that, given that they really have no finishing talent up front to speak of, but much stranger things have happened. His defensive game is being sewered by fans here since the trade, but a lot of people have some pretty antiquated notions as to what makes a good defenseman.

I don't think it's a huge stretch to say his chances of winning a Norris now are similar to what Hall's would have been to win the Hart when he was traded - in other words, it seems pretty unlikely but it's not inconceivable by any means. Very few people considered Hall an elite player before the trade, incidentally. I remember lots of people arguing that he didn't belong anywhere near Team Canada for the Worlds, for example.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I pretty much have no doubt that Hamilton is capable of 60+ points in the right situation. I'm not sure Carolina is that, given that they really have no finishing talent up front to speak of, but much stranger things have happened. His defensive game is being sewered by fans here since the trade, but a lot of people have some pretty antiquated notions as to what makes a good defenseman.

I don't think it's a huge stretch to say his chances of winning a Norris now are similar to what Hall's would have been to win the Hart when he was traded - in other words, it seems pretty unlikely but it's not inconceivable by any means. Very few people considered Hall an elite player before the trade, incidentally. I remember lots of people arguing that he didn't belong anywhere near Team Canada for the Worlds, for example.

It’s a fact Hamilton was a mess in his own end away from Gio. Pretty much every time he was away from him he looked bad. He’s yet to shown he can carry a pairing.