When is our rebuild no longer a rebuild?

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

I don't think Monahan is the type. Brodie I hadn't considered.

Monahan is compared to Toews all the time aka Captain Clutch.

He's also been team captain before.

Captains don't have to be vocal leaders. Monahan leads by example and is already an Assistant captain.

[troutman]

Maybe never.

The Hawks have been adding pieces all week.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Monahan is compared to Toews all the time aka Captain Clutch.

He's also been team captain before.

Captains don't have to be vocal leaders. Monahan leads by example and is already an Assistant captain.

I understand the comparisons, but let's be honest; Sean Monahan is not even close to Johnathan Toews.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

I don't think Monahan is the type. Brodie I hadn't considered.

What do you mean? Everything about Monahan screams future captain. If it's not him, then it's probably Bennett.

This is a lame conversation though, because Giordano's 6 year extension hasn't even started yet.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Panarin, Saad, Toews, Muzzin, Toffoli etc. ELCs have no correlation to contending vs rebuilding.

Yes, they absolutely do. The mistake that you are making is in assuming that the definition of "rebuilding" is arbitrary (as evinced by your silly employment of highly negligible "possession" metrics to determine the difference for you), and further that the dichotomy here is between "rebuilding" and "contending." A lot of teams will "rebuild" and never contend, while a handful of teams will contend and win even before their rebuild is complete. Every team in the NHL is perpetually "building" to the degree that every team is always working to get better. "Rebuilding" assumes a lot more than mere incremental improvement, and has everything to do with the collection of core players that a team will identify as part of their long-term plan. The development of core players which takes place primarily during ELC status thus has a direct correlation to the state of a team's rebuild.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

And this is the issue.

We acquired some of these guys DURING the rebuild.

Canadian teams do not do proper rebuilds usually. This is probably one of the issues why all are outside the playoffs

Every single team who has ever done a rebuild has used UFA signings. It's not possible to fill an NHL roster with prospects. I don't understand how some of you think this can be the case.

A big issue with Edmonton's rebuild is that they can't attract any good UFA players. Their youth was surrounded by more youth and nobody learned how to play NHL hockey.

The Flames players have developed amazingly with the help of UFA signings. Not all of them work out, but some do. Wideman has been worth his contract at times and was great alongside Gaudreau last year. Hudler has been a great mentor for both Monahan and Gaudreau.

Hudler cost money to acquire and left the Flames with 2 draft picks. Hudler helped develop the team in a competitive environment and leaves us with assets for future trades or prospects. That's the definition of a win-win.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

I understand the comparisons, but let's be honest; Sean Monahan is not even close to Johnathan Toews.

Not even close? Offensively Monahan is probably already ahead of Toews. They have the same amount of points this season with Monahan having 2 games less played. Defensively he needs some work but he's just as clutch of a player as Toews.

And I mean even to be compared to a guy who has captained 3 Stanley cup winning teams is quite the feet.

I have never once heard anyone say Gaudreau should be the next captain until today.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

When statistically, the Flames are better than each of:

50% score-adjusted Corsi
50% scored-adjusted Fenwick
20th ranked PP

We will no longer be a team that can use re-building as an excuse.

Here is why this is dumb:

· 49.9% Corsi; 50.3% Fenwick; 21h ranked power play (@17.6%) =rebuild!
· 50.1% Corsi; 50.3% Fenwick; 19th ranked power play (@17.9%) = rebuild complete!

Deciding as to when a rebuild is finished is always going to be somewhat arbitrary—you pointed this out with my own opinion on the topic. But your's is spectacularly so because the differences between the numbers in your datasets are so fractionally small as to be practically negligible.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Here is why this is dumb:

· 49.9% Corsi; 50.3% Fenwick; 21h ranked power play (@17.6%) =rebuild!
· 50.1% Corsi; 50.3% Fenwick; 19th ranked power play (@17.9%) = rebuild complete!

Deciding as to when a rebuild is finished is always going to be somewhat arbitrary—you pointed this out with my own opinion on the topic. But your's is spectacularly so because the differences between the numbers in your datasets are so fractionally small as to be practically negligible.

Yeah, but that's trying to find technicalities. We're far, far away from technicalities. Good teams beat most of those criteria at a reliable rate. Bad teams fail to meet most of those criteria by pretty big margins. We are:

47.2% CF
48% FF
29th ranked PP

We're far away in all three and goaltending won't fix any of them.

If your example B is a team that's just below the threshold of not being rebuilding anymore then it's easier to say "add one impact player and the rebuild is officially over". We're not one player away.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Not even close? Offensively Monahan is probably already ahead of Toews. They have the same amount of points this season with Monahan having 2 games less played. Defensively he needs some work but he's just as clutch of a player as Toews.

And I mean even to be compared to a guy who has captained 3 Stanley cup winning teams is quite the feet.

I have never once heard anyone say Gaudreau should be the next captain until today.

On the ice I've seen Gaudreau single-handedly take over games, something I haven't seen Monahan do. Like I've seen Toews do. I get the comparisons, and the numbers, but there is an extra gear, a thing, that people like Toews, Messier, Yzerman, and such have that I don't think Monahan has. I think that is why he will be the best second-line center in the league one day, but nobody is going to argue with me that Sam Bennett isn't going to be the star first-line center. I think he'd be a better comparison to players that have the "extra gear."

People change. And a Johnny Gaudreau motivated enough to allow the leadership of the team to be put on his shoulders as well as his drive to be the difference maker on the ice would be deadly.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Offensively Monahan is probably already ahead of Toews. today.

Have you ever watched Toews play? He's much more dynamic offensively. He's much more involved in the play. He doesn't play with Kane.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Yeah, but that's trying to find technicalities. We're far, far away from technicalities.

Your entire definition is a technicality, and you haven't shown that it's a relevant one.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Have you ever watched Toews play? He's much more dynamic offensively. He's much more involved in the play. He doesn't play with Kane.

Toews used to play with Kane prior to this season and never racked up Kane like offensive numbers. Also if he was a dynamic offensive player then he wouldn't need to be on Kane's line to score goals.

I never think dynamic scorer when I watch Toews play. Toews is Mr. intangibles and always doing the little things to make the team win games. Also scoring goals whenever the team desperately needs one. Something Monahan has done since entering the league.

If being a captain is all about flying around the ice and scoring goals then why isn't Kane the captain?

[Jason14h]

If the Flames did a TRUE rebuild they would/should have dealt Wideman, Gio, Hudler and more 2 years ago.

That would have been a proper teardown. Look at Toronto's roster.

I am not saying it is the correct method. However, really the Flames aren't 'rebuilding' anymore. They are trying to improve, but so is every other team.

They did what every out of the playoffs team would do/should do, trade their two UFA's.

They are spending to the cap, and trying to make the playoffs. That is not a rebuilding team anymore.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Yeah, but that's trying to find technicalities. We're far, far away from technicalities. Good teams beat most of those criteria at a reliable rate. Bad teams fail to meet most of those criteria by pretty big margins. We are:

47.2% CF
48% FF
29th ranked PP

We're far away in all three and goaltending won't fix any of them.

"Pretty big margins"? You're talking about a couple of percentage points in the duration of play at even strength. This only amounts to a handful of shot attempts for+against/game in the course of probably little more than 60 seconds of actual game time.

That's hardly much of a difference at all. You know, about a decade ago hockey statisticians used to champion the correlation between face-off percentages and playoff success, and yet now this tends to be dismissed as fairly meaningless. I suspect the same will be true for the current model of possession metrics in the course of the next decade, and for similar reasons.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

If being a captain is all about flying around the ice and scoring goals then why isn't Kane the captain?

Because he's a goof.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

He used to play with Kane prior to this season and never racked up Kane like offensive numbers. Also if he was a dynamic offensive player then he wouldn't need to be on Kane's line to score goals.

I never think dynamic scorer when I watch Toews play. Toews is Mr. intangibles and always doing the little things to make the team win games.

If being a captain is all about flying around the ice and scoring goals then why isn't Kane the captain?

No he didn't. At even strength he played with Hossa, Sharp and Saad more often than Kane.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by codynw

No he didn't. At even strength he played with Hossa, Sharp and Saad more often than Kane.

Sorry you are correct, Quenville wanted to keep his 2 best scorers on separate lines last year. I guess I'm referring to the years prior.

And Hossa, Sharp and Saad are quite offensively gifted as well. It's not like Toews' has had to generate his own offense with his supposed 'dynamic offensive abilities'.

Regardless, this is not at all relevant to the discussion. Just got side-tracked after hearing that Monahan isn't captain material.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Because he's a goof.

So you agree there is more to being a captain than flying around the ice scoring goals.

Thank you.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

When the Flames can realistically contend for the division title, beat good teams on a regular basis, and learn to hang onto leads. When they do that for 2 years in a row, I'll believe it's done.

This times 100. I always hated the "get into the playoffs and anything can happen" mentality of the D. Sutter era. The Flames need to build a team that knows how to win consistently in the regular season and carry that winning mentality into the playoffs.

For me it should look something like this:

- Next year - should make playoffs in a wildcard sot, or just barely miss at worst. Should be miles ahead of this season
- Season after - contend for division, playoffs no question - chance to do some damage in the playoffs
- Third season from now - expected to be division winner and strong cup contender.