When is our rebuild no longer a rebuild?

[automaton 3]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

I wouldn't say we have a number one centre as of yet. If you factor in the fact that the Flames have one of the worst records in the league, here's how I perceive our roster today:

From another thread, Monahan is one of only 14 active players to score 20 goals or more in their 1st three seasons.

He is only 21 and is likely to only continue to improve as he builds strength and enters his prime. Not sure why you'd write him off at this point.

[MarkGio]

MOD EDIT: Please treat posters with respect.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think it's more a function of cap space and contracts. When we're a cap team and all of our high picks have their second contracts, our rebuild is pretty much complete. At that point we'll need to determine if it's a successful rebuild or not.

This is along the lines of my same thoughts on the subject, but more concretely, I would say the rebuild is over on the day that there is no more ELC players in the top-six, top-four, or starting in goal.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

I said TODAY. You lost credibility if you think Bennett is a number one centre as of today. I'm not saying he won't be in the future, but a lot can change. Bennett is still slender and he needs to iron out some things before he can be a top 6 centreman. If the Flames draft Mathews or add Jankowski to the roster next season, who knows, maybe Bennett stays a winger.

He has what, 5 games as a centremen in his NHL career? And you used the word core, not me?!

Wow I don't even know what to say.

If we're talking current then you should have him as 3rd line Center because that's the position he plays...

The point of having a young core is that they progress into the pieces that turn your team into contender. Monahan and Bennett is a great center core to build around. We don't need a 1C, because one of our two awesome Centre players will be growing into that role of which Monahan has been thriving as in for almost 2 years now.

I don't think the word core means what you think it means.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by sharkov

When we get some real goaltending and a power forward

I agree. Many of the pieces needed to be successful are in place already but the most critical piece, the goalie, is missing. Once the Flames get a reliable #1 goalie this team will be ready to contend. The current crop of goalies on the roster are not good enough and I don't think the current prospects are the solution either. I haven't heard much about the goalie depth this draft but maybe there is a guy out there that can become a #1.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

I'm not saying Bennett won't be a number centre. I'm saying he's not a number one centre and he might not be a number one centre. I think in just being more realistic as to where we are today

Well by a lot of metrics Monahan may be considered a #1 centre already. Between Bennett and Monahan I think we have the top two centres covered, I think its safe to say. Two guys taken high in the draft with high upsides. Doesn't necessarily matter which one you consider the #1 guy to be right now.

I think it's a little silly to say we our #1 centre slot is a hole that we need to fill long term. Even the most pessimistic of posters would think that one of Bennett and Monahan will become ours wouldn't they?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is along the lines of my same thoughts on the subject, but more concretely, I would say the rebuild is over on the day that there is no more ELC players in the top-six, top-four, or starting in goal.

Panarin, Saad, Toews, Muzzin, Toffoli etc. ELCs have no correlation to contending vs rebuilding.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

And I never implied corsi is the "end-goal" just because it measures where teams are at. You made that up.

No, I got that from many, many people who talk as if the object of a hockey game were to get a good Corsi number. Most of the people who use Corsi as a criterion for anything, in my experience, fall into that category, so I thought it fair to assume that you did as well. Pardon me if I'm wrong.

And those teams are:

Tukka Rask and a pretender
Semyon Varlamov and a pretender
Henrik Lundqvist and a pretender

Hold your horses there. The Rangers were a Stanley Cup finalist in 2014. They're substantially the same team today. Suddenly they're a pretender? Sorry, you don't get to dismiss data that easily.

In fact, there is no such statistical category as ‘pretender’. Unless you are making one up on the spot, in which case you had better define it and be prepared to defend it. As far as I can see, it's just an insult that allows you to casually dismiss data that do not fit your preconceptions. Well, in the real world, things don't stop existing just because you call them names.

Roberto Luongo and a still rebuilding team

By your circular definition of ‘rebuilding’, this is tautologically true. It's true that the Panthers have a lot of young players on their roster. That does not mean that they are rebuilding in the generally accepted sense of the word. I suspect most observers would say they have finished the rebuild and are moving on to contender status, considering that they are now in first place in their division and 7th in the league as a whole.

The Red Wings (24th ranked PP, fulfil the corsi/fenwick criteria)
The Lightning (21st ranked PP, fulfil the corsi/fenwick criteria)[/QUOTE]

In other words, you dismiss three of the exceptions with an insult, one with a miscategorization, and fudge one of your criteria (PP ranking) to handwave the other two. That's some mighty fine moving of goalposts. Colour me unconvinced.

[Traditional_Ale]

I'd even trade the captain for a goalie if the deal was there to be done. The Brodie-Hamilton pairing will be the best in the league, mark my words. And past next season, unless Gio surprises everyone, I think his level of play will drop off. Johnny Gaudreau will be the captain of the Flames.

[Locke]

I would say:

When making the playoffs and going on a deep run becomes an expectation.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

I'd even trade the captain for a goalie if the deal was there to be done. The Brodie-Hamilton pairing will be the best in the league, mark my words. And past next season, unless Gio surprises everyone, I think his level of play will drop off. Johnny Gaudreau will be the captain of the Flames.

What makes you think Gaudreau will be captain? Has he ever been even an alternate captain at any level?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Hold your horses there. The Rangers were a Stanley Cup finalist in 2014. They're substantially the same team today. Suddenly they're a pretender? Sorry, you don't get to dismiss data that easily.

Hold YOUR horses there. The 2014 Rangers had Anton Stralman and fulfiled my criteria with mostly Flying Colors:

52.4% CF
52.6% FF
15th ranked PP

This year's Rangers do not.

47.7% CF
48.5% FF
23rd ranked PP

It does not get more pretender than that. They're not the same team.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

I'd even trade the captain for a goalie if the deal was there to be done. The Brodie-Hamilton pairing will be the best in the league, mark my words. And past next season, unless Gio surprises everyone, I think his level of play will drop off. Johnny Gaudreau will be the captain of the Flames.

I actually dont think Johnny will be the Captain, it deosnt seem to be his style.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by automaton 3

From another thread, Monahan is one of only 14 active players to score 20 goals or more in their 1st three seasons.

He is only 21 and is likely to only continue to improve as he builds strength and enters his prime. Not sure why you'd write him off at this point.

I'm not writing him off? I'm not saying Monahan won't be a number 1 centre, but as of today he's pencilled in as a legit number 2. That's the certainty.

Look at Yakupov. He went from a legit, 25 goal scoring winger to a flop. Sometimes guy plateau young or regress young.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Locke

I actually dont think Johnny will be the Captain, it deosnt seem to be his style.

Who do you have earmarked after Gio?

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Hold YOUR horses there. The 2014 Rangers had Anton Stralman and fulfiled my criteria with mostly Flying Colors:

52.4% CF
52.6% FF
15th ranked PP

This year's Rangers do not.

Doesn't that mean your criteria is invalid?

I mean a Stanley cup finalist barely met your criteria and 2014 wasn't some fluke season for them.

And when did Stralman become some Hockey God that losing him means a contending team is now a 'pretender'?

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Who do you have earmarked after Gio?

Monahan, Brodie, Bennett. In that order.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Who do you have earmarked after Gio?

The guy who frequently gets compared to Toews would be my guess.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Monahan, Brodie, Bennett. In that order.

I don't think Monahan is the type. Brodie I hadn't considered.

[Jason14h]

We still haven't finished tearing down. The following people still need to be replaced by the "rebuilt" pieces:
-- Stajan
-- Smid
-- Wideman
-- Raymond
-- Bollig

And this is the issue.

We acquired some of these guys DURING the rebuild.

Canadian teams do not do proper rebuilds usually. This is probably one of the issues why all are outside the playoffs