Teacher's Salary Increase Possible

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Students can't fail or be left behind any more. My kid started school last school year and he is December-born so he is the youngest in his class. Because of that he is/was a bit behind developmentally and likely will be for a few of the early years (hopefully not for too long though.) We asked his kindergarten teacher if he could re-do kindergarten and she said that they don't hold kids back any more. They don't like to separate the kids from their peers because it potentially causes social issues.

Yes and while many people would think this is ridiculous there is actual science and research that has gone into why we are operating this way in Alberta (with the right answer here).

It is potentially more harmful to hold back kids than not to on the balance of things and in most cases (not all), which is why this policy has been adopted.

[northcrunk]

The public service will never see pay cuts under comrade Notley. While the private sectors suffers and deals with wage reduction the NDP doesn't have the balls/lady balls to do anything about the public sector.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Yes and while many people would think this is ridiculous there is actual science and research that has gone into why we are operating this way in Alberta (with the right answer here).

It is potentially more harmful to hold back kids than not to on the balance of things and in most cases (not all), which is why this policy has been adopted.

A kindergarten kid who has only been making friends for 8 months or so won't be too scarred or screwed up from being held back. The kid might actually feel more social pressure and anxiety from his friends when he is at the bottom of his class in reading and writing in grade 1 or grade 2.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

The public service will never see pay cuts under comrade Notley. While the private sectors suffers and deals with wage reduction the NDP doesn't have the balls/lady balls to do anything about the public sector.

It's not a matter of (whatever kind of) balls. It is simply not something she wants or can do to her union friends and overlords.

It is just like her lack of support and/or stepping on the neck of the energy industry. It simply is what she wants to do.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Yes and while many people would think this is ridiculous there is actual science and research that has gone into why we are operating this way in Alberta (with the right answer here).

It is potentially more harmful to hold back kids than not to on the balance of things and in most cases (not all), which is why this policy has been adopted.

Until the real world comes along and they whine and complain because they aren't coddled anymore.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Major Major

I am 30 years old, so maybe older people can chime in. When I was in school, there wasn't a constant flux in my grade between people being held back year to year. You went with your grade group essentially regardless of performance, and that was 20 years ago. High School is a different story, but I believe that it largely still is. So was there a time that you went into your school year with the legitimate threat that you would not move on to the next grade with your peers?

I'm in my mid-40s, and every year two or three kids in my grade were held back. They were typically kids who were screwed up in more ways than just academically - pretty much all boys who were aggressive and poorly socialized. So while I'm sure there was a correlation between being held back and poor social outcomes, I wonder which way the causation really worked.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by Slava

Like my kids both hate music. Not math, not science, not a "hard" class. Music. That is disheartening because they don't actually hate music itself, they hate the class because its boring. So here we have a subject which is to entertain people and its turned into boredom for the young students. I just think that is a real shame. I couldn't believe it when I heard this, but the kids are just being honest. We've got some serious issues with our education system when kids can't even enjoy music class in my opinion. And these are elementary kids, just as a point of reference.

That's probably because almost no elementary schools have actual music teachers anymore, and as a result it is often taught by teachers who have no background in music and often no real interest in it.

[ranchlandsselling]

Really, a teacher can't see how large layoffs and declining private sector wages could impact a teacher's salary? The current economic environment should have no bearing on teachers wages?

Everything is relative. There's no actual way to derive what is a fair wage other than comparison to peers. Not to mention teacher salaries are a cost function of an equation that includes tax revenue.

The fact that a teacher started the thread saying they don't need more than $100,000 is incredible.

The Alberta Government has a wage profile page that says an Elementary/Kindergarten School Teacher works an average of 34.8 hours per week. Makes $42.98 per hour and an overall average salary of $74,679.00. I don't think that's unfair at all. I think it's pretty reasonable. But I don't think making that much and crying about not getting a raise when the average weekly earning of Albertans is going down.

With a 2% raise, the average salary would be $84,000 in 5-6 years. If the current economic environment keeps up you think the average teacher salary should have jumped by 12.6% while everyone else's is falling or staying the same. Do you realize the problem that would cause financially for the province?

http://occinfo.alis.alberta.ca/occin...e.html?id=4142

I like how the teacher says on one hand private sector employees chose to work in the environment they did, with all the bonuses, raises, and stock plans (yeah, because we're all 1%ers) and as such they have to shut up about falling wages and layoffs. But on the other hand tell teachers that their salaries need to be looked at as a result of a recession and falling tax revenues and they say no? I'm sorry, too bad, you chose to work in a sector that gets paid from tax revenue and that comes from everyone in the province, private sector employees as well. Jeebus.

Crappy working conditions? Not being able to do your job because your employer doesn't give you all the tools you need. Working in settings where you can't get decisions made quickly because it's such a big stupid organization, having too many bosses to answer, no assistants to help you with the mindless drivel that takes up your entire day and stops you from doing what you're actually paid to do. . . I'm sorry, you think teachers are unique in that situation? HAHAHAHA.

[rd_aaron]

Some interesting discussion. I am also the SO of a teacher who believes she is fairly compensated, but would like more support in the school.

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I was part of a passport type program when it was a prototype back in NB in the late 90's. Was an absolute clown shown. Students all over the map and frustrated as a result, teachers ready to pull their hair out, and a bunch of the gifted kids sitting their doing nothing as they worked at a rate ten times quicker than the other kids and the teachers only had time to deal with the dummies 10 modules behind. Program was called "Foundation Block" or some BS like that.

I was done all my credits by September of my grade 12 year. I honestly could have been done everything 1 complete year early if I wanted to, but there was no point. I sat there for 8 months doing nothing waiting to graduate.

NB canned that program real quick. Doesn't work for teachers or students. My mother was a teacher and took the penalty and retired two years early to get out of being part of that program.

We sat in on an info session for a private school that was opening that does something similar to this. My wife was looking for a job at the time and we were referred to this school. They said you might have a "grade 2" and "grade 5" student in the same math class if their abilities were similar. However, to get your kid into this school, there couldn't be any learning/social disabilities. Essentially no "coded" kids.

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I want a system where good teachers are rewarded and paid very well, and poor ones are at risk of job loss. Just like the real world.

In a perfect world, I would like a system like that as well. The biggest issue is that it can be difficult to evaluate teachers.

If you use standardized testing as a gauge, it's not fair to the teachers whose class is primarily ESL and could struggle on exams that are written in English. In addition, higher income neighborhoods typically score higher than lower income neighborhoods on standardized testing, so there's an inequality there.

The best solution would be to have the principal and vice-principals evaluate & review teachers and that is what determines their raises/demotions/dismissals. This happens to an extent, but admin usually has lots of other responsibilities and doesn't always have time to regularly visit classrooms (especially consider high schools where there could be 100 teachers plus support staff). Then there's the issue of teaching styles and there could be friction between principal and teacher, even though perhaps both methods would get you the same result. This would still be the best solution I think, and it would hopefully remove/shape up bad teachers.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by rd_aaron

The best solution would be to have the principal and vice-principals evaluate & review teachers and that is what determines their raises/demotions/dismissals. This happens to an extent, but admin usually has lots of other responsibilities and doesn't always have time to regularly visit classrooms (especially consider high schools where there could be 100 teachers plus support staff). Then there's the issue of teaching styles and there could be friction between principal and teacher, even though perhaps both methods would get you the same result. This would still be the best solution I think, and it would hopefully remove/shape up bad teachers.

My wife is a teacher, she teaches high school math (IB and Math 31). Do you think the Principal/Vice Principals at her school (every one of whom has a phys ed degree and was a gym teacher) are likely able to judge whether she's teaching calculus correctly? I would bet a lot of money that none of them could PASS calculus.

Now, teacher's need to be evaluated in some way, and the terrible ones should be removed somehow. But getting admin to do it isn't necessarily the best way.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Slava

I know what you mean, but this is one of my frustrations in looking at education. That was the question I was asking Iliketopuck though. He listed these issues and I would like to see a concrete idea of what these consequences should be.

We have a group of experts (teachers, admin, and people who work in this system all day every day), and all we as the general public hear is that these problems exist. At some point someone in that group of experts needs to come to the table with solutions or at least paths to go down. I would hope that these solutions involve something other than more money. Maybe we need to change the way classes are formed and split off kids who are learning disabled from ESL from the normal tract. Maybe we do hold more kids back if they're not able to perform the work required at certain grade-levels? To me that is an academic consequence for an academic issue. I really don 't know what makes sense either, but that is something I would hope the experts in the field would come to the table with.

Definitely a fair question. I've got to scoot from work right now, but I'll give it some thought and try to pen a response tonight if I get some time.

[rd_aaron]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

My wife is a teacher, she teaches high school math (IB and Math 31). Do you think the Principal/Vice Principals at her school (every one of whom has a phys ed degree and was a gym teacher) are likely able to judge whether she's teaching calculus correctly? I would bet a lot of money that none of them could PASS calculus.

Now, teacher's need to be evaluated in some way, and the terrible ones should be removed somehow. But getting admin to do it isn't necessarily the best way.

Yeah, exactly. My wife teaches primary grades so it's probably easier to evaluate (and they do formal evaluations until they become permanent), but it's so subjective, they only see them teach once in a blue moon, and, like in your wife's case, they potentially can't evaluate since they don't know the subject matter. Not surprising that we have the system we do now, as there's no easy solution.

[bagofpucks]

Wanted to chime in on the 'holding back conversation..."

I am 30 and my birthday was actually the exact cut off day for kids either entering school (December). My parents enrolled me in pre-school and after the year they decided it was best to "hold me back" and I had a second year of pre-school instead of going with the group that went to kindergarten. One note, my Mom was a teacher in the community and recognized that I was a bit behind where I should be. Also of note, I had a pretty severe speech impediment that I had to go to Speech Therapy for which did not get rectified until Grade 1 or 2.

From a social perspective, this did not impact me one bit and one thing that's funny to look back on is I actually had a ton of friends in the older grade all the way through elementary and high school. Nobody looked down on me or thought I was stupid; I wasn't stupid, I just wasn't quite where everyone else was developmentally.

From an academic perspective I was an honors student in high school and went on to get a bachelors and a masters degree in business.

Not saying my experience should change the opinion of holding kids back, but I did want to share anyways. Additionally, even though my skill set would be a perfect fit for a teacher position there is no way I would go into that profession with how parents behave these days (and I only foresee it getting worse).

[GGG]

I think the biggest problem is too much administration.

The province gives like 9500 per kid. Class size is over 25. That's about 240k per classroom. Teachers make less that 100k on average. So that's a multiplier of 2.5 times salary to run a business. Anything more than 2 is ridiculous especially when they don't pay capital costs of buildings

They need to cut administration substantially. I would start out by cutting 10% of non teaching staff and then seeing where the gaps are after you reorganize. You could probably get rid of 20% of The administration without seeing a difference in frontline services.

To get down to a reasonable multiplier 1/3rd of admin costs would need to be cut.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

My wife is a teacher, she teaches high school math (IB and Math 31). Do you think the Principal/Vice Principals at her school (every one of whom has a phys ed degree and was a gym teacher) are likely able to judge whether she's teaching calculus correctly? I would bet a lot of money that none of them could PASS calculus.

Now, teacher's need to be evaluated in some way, and the terrible ones should be removed somehow. But getting admin to do it isn't necessarily the best way.

I think teachers should be evaluated on how much improvement their students show. One of the benefits of all the no child left behind data was you could actually find teachers who out performed others after accounting for economic affects.

I'll have to see if I can find the study that was looking at it. But the just if it was year over year teachers who are good have students increase at more than a grade level across all skill levels of students.

[V]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I want a system where good teachers are rewarded and paid very well, and poor ones are at risk of job loss. Just like the real world.

What part of the real world is that? We've been watching all kinds of good hard working people getting laid off this year, and a whole bunch of slackers still have a job. Meritocracy is a joke.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Now, teacher's need to be evaluated in some way, and the terrible ones should be removed somehow. But getting admin to do it isn't necessarily the best way.

Can you imagine a company like Encana or Cenovus where they couldn't fire or discipline people? No accountability ever, you have to carry the dead weight until they leave or retire. I've watched people leave the board of education system because they couldn't do a thing to somebody with multiple (dozens of sexual harassment) complaints. They only way those people leave is if they die, they choose to or get caught raping a student.

Originally Posted by V

What part of the real world is that? We've been watching all kinds of good hard working people getting laid off this year, and a whole bunch of slackers still have a job. Meritocracy is a joke.

If indeed they are good enough, they'll find something else and those slackers are still up to get dumped at point down the line. It's totally different than teachers and school staff that essentially cannot be fired.

[Kavvy]

Teaching is a hard gig, and there are many amazing hard working teachers who go out of their way to raise other people's kids.

There are also terrible ones who should be fired but can't. However, I don't understand how to fix it.

We can't trust parental feedback on teachers, because parents can be truly nuts when it comes to rating someone who daycares their kid all day.

Leaving it to the schools principal and his/her leadership team could also be extremely unfair if they are bias, and many are (or from stories I am told). If a teacher gets let go, their essentially done in their industry as their are only 3 options - Catholic, Public and Private, and with being let go on your resume, you are hooped. It's not like normal industries where you can apply at other companies.

The system is broken and this post is meaningless as I have no idea how to fix it.

Oh ya- public servant salary should be tied to the private sector. We have the highest paid in the nation - ok during boom times, not ok during bust times.
5% pay haircut to all public service employees should be enforced.... however, probably not legal with the unions. I say 5% nearly randomly without research as I assume public service salaries don't increase as much as the private sector during boom times, so they should go down a whole lot less during bust time. 5% is massively less considering the layoffs.

[corporatejay]

Yeah. Private school is the way to go.

[driveway]

When I get evaluated as a teacher this is the framework by which I am evaluated:
https://www.danielsongroup.org/framework/

I quite like it, though it requires excellent administration to deliver.


The Alberta teacher's pay grid:
https://www.epsb.ca/media/epsb/ourdi..._2012-2016.pdf
(page 2 of the pdf)
Looks really good, it's competitive with the best private international schools for remuneration. Or at least it would be were it not for the Canadian Dollar and low-cost of living overseas.

However, based on the issues public-sector teachers have to face: the huge bureaucracy, large class sizes, lack of support, lack of materials, etc. etc. I can't envision any circumstance which would get me out of private schools and into public schools.

I'll take my 18 kids, my 1-1 laptop program, and the facilities that come along with kids paying tuition through the nose and forego the union job and protections, thank you very much.