[FT] Loubardias vs Steinberg

[Buck Murdock]

Loubardias sounds crazy in that clip

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

You are comparing him to Monahan saying they'll be close in the end. They are a long way from being close at this point.

Not quite what I said no. I said, "Monahan obviously more of an impact player early on but I think the gap will close somewhat."

You said he was having a bad year! Considering he's 20 years old that was a far more ridiculous statement than mine.

[united]

Wow, Loubardias lost his mind. Agreed, I usually like Loubardias but that was ridiculous and unprofessional. I thought Steinberg handled that about as well as he could without completely changing the topic - well done.

A good lesson for this site, too. You know how ridiculous Loubardias sounds for accusing Steinberg of not watching the game? That's how posters here appear every time they accuse other posters who use advanced stats of not watching the game, or for dismissing advanced stats outright. We are on a forum where the main topic is hockey, we all watch the game!

And another good point by Steinberg: just because a coach thinks highly of a player doesn't mean he's right. As he said, if your argument is always stats wrong, coach right, what's the point of forums, radio, etc?

[TheScorpion]

It was some great radio. I'm a huge fan of Loubo, and though I'm not sure I agree with his arguments on Russell, I really appreciate the heart he brought to the discussion.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Agreed. Everyone understands that "these are people, they care" blah blah blah. Do your job and analyze the sport as a member of the media, not as someone who wants to be BFF with the players. Totally ridiculous.

I've actually noticed this a lot in hockey -- media guys are way too personal with the players and teams and don't ask the real questions that fans are thinking about.

Yup. Far too cozy with the players. Spend most of their day with them. Even Peter Maher was terrible for that. By the end it was hard to listen to.

[GranteedEV]

Personally, I do see both sides of the debate, leaning heavily to Steinberg's position, but I just dislike how it ultimately broke down into "I know more than numbers because I know who cares".

Yeah, having players who cares matters. And Kris Russell, he's a guy I would love on this team in a limited role (closer to the kind of sheltered minutes Schlemko gave us last year) But the crux of the issue is that coaching staff refuses to limit his role and I am not paying top 4 defenseman money for a bottom pair defenseman. It has nothing to do with me blaming Russell for this season or the team's overall advanced stats, it has to do with what makes sense short and long term.

You have to be cut-throat in business and no matter how hard Russell plays you have to identify his actual value to your team. Russell doesn't suck at hockey. But his game is not appropriate for a top 4 defenseman and this is confirmed by his underlying numbers. If he wants money greater than his current salary then he is an anchor contract waiting to happen. You cash out now.

Russell is a great guy and probably the most deserving guy on the roster to have an A on his chest. But even captains get traded. Iginla got traded. Ladd got traded yesterday. Giordano's NMC is only partial. That's business and when fans criticise Russell it's not because we would rather watch Judtin Schultz half ass it it's because things have to make sense financially for this team to take that next step. Engelland is another guy who is going to be a victim of that, so deal with it now Peter Loubardias.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Russell is not a very good hockey player.

Apparently you just need to drive around rural alberta and saskatchewan to watch more whl games and it will all start to make sense

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Russell is not a very good hockey player.

False.

Have you heard the rumoured returns for Russell? The number of teams interested in Russell? Hockey people seem to disagree greatly with your opinion there.

[edslunch]

Loubo definitely went over the top but he tried to end the discussion several times but Steinberg wouldn't let it go.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

False.

Have you heard the rumoured returns for Russell? The number of teams interested in Russell? Hockey people seem to disagree greatly with your opinion there.

I have data on my side, you have baseless conjecture.

I'm prepared to eat my words but an honest assessment of his play and stats would not lead one to think that he's a player you want to have on your team.

I'm pretty sure most other teams know this too.

[MikeMc]

Felt like Loubardias was defending Russell from a personal and professional standpoint. Was semi unprofessional in his defense but radio should have different opinions shared so I'm all for it.

Also I like it when the analytic crew gets slapped a bit. Their voice, while a valid part of the conversation, has become too loud in the overall discussion.

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

I have amateur interpretation of partial data on my side, you have baseless conjecture.

I'm prepared to eat my words but an honest assessment of his play and stats would not lead one to think that he's a player you want to have on your team.

I'm pretty sure most other teams know this too.

fyp

[calumniate]

That was pretty cringe inducing. Like watching a real fight go down.. a wave of butterflies came over me haha

[Inglewood Jack]

Originally Posted by MikeMc

Also I like it when the analytic crew gets slapped a bit. Their voice, while a valid part of the conversation, has become too loud in the overall discussion.

I count this Pat vs Loubo showdown as a big time loss for the anti-stats crowd in my book. there's ways the "traditional" analysis can be argued without sounding like you're that player's dad or agent.

and the other thing that doesn't work is when you resort to yelling "put down the spreadsheet and watch the game, nerds!". we all watch the games, and if you're looking for the right things, the eye test more often than not agrees with the stats. I don't need to see Russell's Hero Chart to determine that he loses too many puck battles along the boards, makes bad decisions when trying to exit zone, and flops around like a damn starfish at the mere threat of an incoming shot. none of those things take away the heart and soul he has either, all these aspects can be true at the same time.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

I'm prepared to eat my words but an honest assessment of his play and stats would not lead one to think that he's a player you want to have on your team.

Well... I'd have him on my team but I'd only have him play half as much as he does, against lesser opponents then he does now, and only pay him about a 3rd of what he (apparently) wants.

He's an acceptable 3rd pairing guy on any team in the league but he's not a top 4 d-man on a championship caliber team.

[JayP]

I understand the personal attachment to guys that care the most and clearly Russell is one of those guys. But his compete level factors into his on-ice results - it doesn't supplement them. If Russell didn't have a high compete level, he wouldn't be in the NHL. The fact that he cares and competes hard allows him to have whatever modest on-ice results he gets. From an emotional perspective, it's a lot easier to like a guy who gives 100%, but only gets mediocre results than a guy who coasts a bit at 80%, but achieves similar results. But from a rational perspective results are results however a player gets to them.

The biggest issue I have with Loubo and these anti-stats rants is that they all claim "I know how these stats work" and then prove otherwise the rest of the time they talk. Loubo made a big deal about how Russell's possession numbers aren't all his fault - it's a team stat. Which could be true, but anyone with the faintest familiarity with the stats in question knows you can look at With & Without You numbers to try and isolate how other players on the same team do with/without Russell (essentially everyone has much better numbers). This is basic stuff and just goes to show that in spite of his pleas otherwise, clearly Loubo hasn't taken any time to truly understand what he hates.

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

What does matter is that Loubo sounded like an absolute child....Give me a break Pete. You sounded like a child throwing a tantrum.

Nailed it

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Russell is not a very good hockey player.

I think its statements like this that have him so riled up...guy might not be a top three but he could play on any team in the league, you know the best league in the world. Its no wonder many players hate Canadian markets, Russell is gonna love it down south where he just plays and collects massive stacks of money without the scrutiny.

back on topic why do people get so offended...it was great radio, has us all talking and listening

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I dunno the idea that some stats tell us more about a player then coaches who've worked with the guy for a couple years? That's questionable. I put a lot more stock into what our coaches think about players then what advanced stats say about anybody.

I agree with you in principal but this case is pretty extreme.

I don't want to be right on this, but I just can't see where these stats can go wrong.

Table below shows each player playing with Russell, their position, their time on the ice with Russell, their CF% with Russell, then time apart and their CF% without playing with Russell.

The CF% difference shows only Sven Baertschi gained from being on the ice with Russell in the last three years in Calgary.

I noticed that Wideman was flat, no difference with or without Russell so I added 3 more columns ...

1) each player's ice time and CF% with Wideman, and then finally the "Anchor", which is which of the two hurt each player the most.

At the bottom is the tally ... 21 hurt more with Russell, 10 hurt more with Wideman.

I just can't find a way for Russell to get out of this but my mind is open!

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Table below shows each player playing with Russell, their position, their time on the ice with Russell, their CF% with Russell, then time apart and their CF% without playing with Russell.[/IMG]

Source? I'd like to play around with that chart.