Prentice Blames Albertans

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by wooohooo

What about the amount we are paying Physicians?

It seems utterly ridiculous how much we spend paying them. They are a very important part of society and with the amount of Education for sure they should be well compensated. But to the amount they make, seems almost... unfair. In fact they just got a raise a month ago.

If there's anything that'll put us more in debt it's healthcare spending especially to Doctors. I have a lot (over 8) physicians in my family and they all agree that the system is broken, but they'll milk the system while it is.

I think that is the first thing people go after is salaries. For the employer it probably is the easiest way to cut costs, just roll back wages and tell your employees tough luck. However, I think salaries are a quick and totally incomplete fix. I really want to see how much a 5% roll back is going to save in the grand scheme of things.

I am fairly sure if audited there are many other areas that cuts could be made that would result in larger savings. Issue is that would involve complex negotiations with supply vendors, deep analysis of process to identify waste or duplication, and more transparency on how and where money gets spent.

Yes the majority of Albertans (myself excluded) voted PC for 40 years so they do deserve a share of blame. However, again blaming Albertans feels like a cheap cop out, just like rolling back public service wages. They got power by promising to manage our money well, which evidently they did not. They deserve the blame for that. They enacted the policies that got us here. Yet at the same time the majority voted them in, and cheered when Ralph Bucks came out, and Paid in Full happened.

What I am saying is this is more complicated than one group at fault. So Prentice is doing what all good politicians do, boil it down to something simple and understandable for the masses. We are in debt, we got to look in the mirror, we got to belt tighten, you know what a salary is, so let's cut that.

Yet the whole time the waste continues, buried deep in the gov't. You won't see or hear it, but you'll feel better some teachers, nurses, or doctors get a pay cut. That is something the majority will understand.

It is totally dishonest, but smart politics.

[Jason14h]

If it's so easy, why don't you?

He didn't say easy, he said would gladly do it.

And you know, the years of schooling required and cost may have something to do with it.

Teachers are fairly compensated in my opinion. Yes they put in tons of extra time during the year, but they also get a TON of extra time off, and great benifits and pensions.

Now how about health care administrators! Can't we pick on an industry we know are overpaid!!!

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by polak

And the starting salary for teachers is what, 63K a year or something like that right? Much higher than most degrees pay straight out of University. Not to mention an outrageous pension plan and unmatched job security.

I'll preface this by saying that my fiancee is a teacher.

She has been teaching for 6 years including 3 spent in garbage holes in Northern AB and Northern Sask because she couldn't get a job here. She doesn't have a permanent position yet and has had to take contract work and hasn't had to spend much time on the sub list since coming here.

She also works with a teacher 8 years in, who for the first time this year has a full-time contract for a year.

The job security if great, if you're one of the lucky ones who gets it.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

I work in O&G finance and have done so my whole career. I am in the same boat as anyone else in the industry right now, and believe me I understand the pay cuts, downsizing, increased work loads, etc.

I regularly work overtime, weekends, and am studying for a professional designation. Speaking from direct, personal experience, the teacher I know works far harder than I do, and it still isn't enough (while getting paid far less).

Well I have also seen this first hand when my wife was teaching years ago. Its a shame, but at the same time they know full well what they are signed up for before they take the job. Not unlike you I work a lot of hours a week, am working on the CFA which adds an enormous amount of study time and preparation and I knew that going in.

If teachers don't think they're paid fairly they're free to find other employment; we should see a rash of vacancies for teaching positions in that case, but we don't. I think at least part of the reason for that is the fully guaranteed and generous retirement package, benefits package and of course the nearly 3 months off.

Overall I think that teachers are paid fairly. I've mentioned in other threads that I would like to see a more creative education system (in terms of how the curriculum is delivered) and more instructional hours. I've been flamed on this board before for suggesting that teachers don't work enough hours, and I would suggest that particularly in elementary that is largely the case. I might not be of that mind when you get over say grade 5, but until that point I think teachers are more than adequately paid.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Nothing he said was wrong.

How he articulated it was wrong. What people are reacting to is that he should first assign blame to his own party for the problems, not the ordinary citizen. They've been tasked by citizens to lead the province and properly manage our finances (which are vast).

It would be like the Oilers management blaming the fans for team being No Good.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

If it's so easy, why don't you?

I despise children.

I never said it was easy. Just that their compensation isn't some sort of slave labor like they want you to believe every 3 or 4 years when the strike talk starts looming.

Most jobs aren't easy.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by polak

And the starting salary for teachers is what, 63K a year or something like that right? Much higher than most degrees pay straight out of University. Not to mention an outrageous pension plan and unmatched job security.

If you have two degrees, yes. If you have two degrees and settle for a job paying 63k a year starting, you need to get your head checked. Please try to understand this. Teachers do not go into teaching for the money.

Originally Posted by polak

You just said that the hours balance out. I'd GLADLY 100% work 3 extra hours a day for a guaranteed 2 Weeks off during Christmas break, 1 week off during spring, 2 MONTHS off during the summer with additional time sprinkled in there and the freedom to call in a sub whenever you need too. Even if I had to do some light work during that time that is still incredible. Not only are those the most in demand and most difficult times to book off and the hardest time to deal with as a parent who normally has to work and figure out what to do with their kids, but it's also faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more vacation time then you could ever expect in the private sector, even if you worked for the same company for +20 years.

You genuinely have no idea how the profession works. Do you understand that for a great deal of this "time off" a teacher is expected to be planning lessons and prepping?

Originally Posted by polak

What do you expect here? You want them to be on some pedastool removed from the volitilaty of the economy? Whats your end game here? What do you believe is fair compensation?

In what world do teachers make too much money. My lord. For the amount that they work, and the conditions they have to put up with, they don't get paid nearly enough.

Try teaching a class of thirty five 9 year old's. Then try it with half of those kids being ESL, and a third of them being coded. Then plan 6 lessons every evening for the next day, while writing report cards with individual comments for every single subject for 35 children. (Your format for report cards changes every year by the way. Good luck with that).

Let me know how that works out for you, and please make sure to tell me that you're compensated fairly.

Originally Posted by polak

Also, teaching is a very different profession by nature and only completely clueless people get into teaching without knowing what they're getting in to. All of your complaints have been common knowledge to the public for years. Teachers threatened to go on strike three times in my twelve years of grade school and actually did once. 40% attrition probably has a lot to do with people thinking they love kids and realizing how wrong they were.

There are far worse jobs that pay much less with far fewer perks.

What an offensive comment. Some of the smartest and hardest working people I know are teachers, and got into it knowing that they would face the pressures they would. They got into teaching because they wanted to make a difference, and see that the next generation of our society receives a education that will allow them to succeed in life.

You clearly don't understand the issues faced by teachers. I could read comments from the Calgary Sun if I wanted to have an equivalent amount of insight into the teaching profession.

[lambeburger]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Don't think for a second that Wild Rose would have handled this any better.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Don't think for a second that the Liberals would have handled this any better.


My statement is precisely as accurate as yours is.

I guess we'll never know how any party other than the PCs would handle anything. A change in government is obviously too scary of a thought for Albertan voters.

[Table 5]

Can we just subcontract our leadership to some Norwegian politicians?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by lambeburger

I guess we'll never know how any party other than the PCs would handle anything. A change in government is obviously too scary of a thought for Albertan voters.

Well, actually I think we have a pretty good idea.

I wrote this post a few months ago.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I wonder if this will be cause for reflection for Wild Rose/Conservative supporters.

Is this move, and the preceding political fates of Stelmach and Redford any kind of reflection on conservative ideology in Canada?

Is this just a case, again, of forthright ideologies being misrepresented (again) by the wrong politicians, or is it deeper than that? Is the current political landscape a reflection of the conservative ideology that has had popular support for decades? You reap what you sow, right?

Does the entrenched, conservative nature of these parties and ideologies breed this sort of behaviour?

For example is it conservative resistance to efforts to pluralise voting results, most famously the SoCred decision to abolish proportional representation in favour of first past the post, or their ideological approach to regulation of natural resources that contributes to this kind of anti-democratic action?

Is conservative ideology not up for reflection when once again, two parties on the conservative side of the fence have put power above representation of their constituents?

There seems to be a plurality of posters in here that would rather not vote than vote for a party that didn't identify as conservative. Are these posters aware of their contribution the lack of representation of alberta voters?

When the time a single party has been in power is measured in decades, at what point do the political ideologies that frame the elected officials become as culpable as the officials themselves?

To put it simply: When people who eschew progress are continually rewarded, should we be surprised when precious little progress has been realized?

Stelmach, Redford, the current wild rose disaster. Are these not symptoms of 'conserving' power? Of an ideology opposed and resistant to change? Or is the facile argument of it being the politicians themselves and not the system they have created and represent going to be used again to pull the wool over peoples eyes?

How long can this charade of 'small government' and 'social conservatism' hold relevance in the face of floor crossing and power mergers in a province without political recourse or popular representation, and how long will voters in the province pretend like it has nothing to do with them?

So, when caramonLS says wildrose wouldn't have done much better, we have evidence.

Popular conservative ideology in the province of Alberta is an abject failure at this point. Going further into that ideology is highly likely to follow the same trajectory. I'm sure there will be arguments to the contrary that shape the narrative that the conservatives in power aren't 'real' conservatives etc, but that's a bunch of hooey if you look at the track record of the province for the last 40 years. Conservative policies are what got the province into this mess; low taxation, poor infrastructure development, reliance on boom/bust energy sector. These are all hallmarks of a/the conservative ideology.

So, while Prentice might point the finger at voters, and while voters might point the finger at the party, what both are missing is that it's not either, it's the ideology of contemporary 'conservatism' that is responsible. It's the idea that you can have low taxes and still have social services, that you can have poor infrastructure but still maintain population growth, and that you can ignore environmental externalities if they come at the cost of employment statistics.

The chickens have come home to roost now, and the same people who would have you go even further to the right are the same who would suggest 'digging up', often tagging a long a 'stupid' qualifier on the end.

[Harry Lime]

IliketoPuck knows a teacher. Polak has seen three teachers from a distance once.
Slava, the teaching profession has changed radically within the past half decade as the PCs have introduced the 21st Century Initiative. It is ugly right now.
I'm going to try and not continue this particular thread on the teaching profession, because I've seen what the state of teachers lives are, and people speaking from a position of ignorance are just going to make me say something that I might regret. Suffice to say that the way things are done now in education, politics takes a front row seat, and teachers without 10 years or more seniority are being driven out of the profession.

This thread has an interesting enough topic as it is. We have been ruled by politicians for a very long time, and have seen very few people capable of governance. Perhaps it is time to put a limit on MLA service in place. Perhaps 12 years? If a politician knew that their time of service was coming to a close, maybe they would not be eternally focused on the outcome of the next election, at the cost of rational governance.

The only blame Albertans hold for the failures of the PC party, is that we have been unable to develop a viable alternative to run against them. If we are going to have a one party system, we need to instill limits of some sort.

[polak]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I'll preface this by saying that my fiancee is a teacher.

She has been teaching for 6 years including 3 spent in garbage holes in Northern AB and Northern Sask because she couldn't get a job here. She doesn't have a permanent position yet and has had to take contract work and hasn't had to spend much time on the sub list since coming here.

She also works with a teacher 8 years in, who for the first time this year has a full-time contract for a year.

The job security if great, if you're one of the lucky ones who gets it.

Oh this I agree with. I've heard the horror stories. But thats exactly it! That proves my point. If teaching is such a terrible job, then why are there almost no free vacancies? My one friend who works in one of the poorest districts in Edmonton is ridiculously grateful.

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Now how about health care administrators! Can't we pick on an industry we know are overpaid!!!

Yup. I know one who has been working for 5-6 years and she's already making 67 grand a year with zero education.

K here we go....

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

If you have two degrees, yes. If you have two degrees and settle for a job paying 63k a year starting, you need to get your head checked. Please try to understand this. Teachers do not go into teaching for the money.

PFFT. Nice try. Your second degree can be completely useless (most are). Go do a 4 year arts, psych or Kinese degree at Mount Royal and you're set. I'm pretty sure most teachers are people who took a stupid degree, realized that half way through and decided to get into teaching.

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

You genuinely have no idea how the profession works. Do you understand that for a great deal of this "time off" a teacher is expected to be planning lessons and prepping?

Whoopty do. I was expected to answer my work phone on my vacation in case #### really hits the fan. There are many professions that are always on call. The Formulators and Logistics people at my old job (feed mill) were on call 24/7, 7 days in a row. Then you would have 7 days of not being on call and then it was your turn again.

Sitting at your kitchen table and writing up a lesson plan is far from something they should be complaining about.

Hey guys, did you hear that during their 2 month vacation teachers have to write up lesson plans? God it's basically like sweat shop work.

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

In what world do teachers make too much money. My lord. For the amount that they work, and the conditions they have to put up with, they don't get paid nearly enough.

I never said they make too much money? I wouldn't complain if they got small raises. It's this "woe is me" attitude that is a piss-off.

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Try teaching a class of thirty five 9 year old's. Then try it with half of those kids being ESL, and a third of them being coded. Then plan 6 lessons every evening for the next day, while writing report cards with individual comments for every single subject for 35 children. (Your format for report cards changes every year by the way. Good luck with that).

Let me know how that works out for you, and please make sure to tell me that you're compensated fairly.

Oh my god you have to write 35 different comments? #### I had no idea. That must be really difficult. Jesus. I get that it's not an easy job but that doesn't make them some sort of untouchable Gods that are exempt from economic troubles. You know who has it worse than the teachers? How about the one janitor that makes half of what the teachers make, has to put up with all of the kids anyways and has to clean up after them? You're acting like teachers are the only ones out there with tough jobs.

If it's so tough then why are there almost no available teaching jobs?

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

What an offensive comment. Some of the smartest and hardest working people I know are teachers, and got into it knowing that they would face the pressures they would. They got into teaching because they wanted to make a difference, and see that the next generation of our society receives a education that will allow them to succeed in life.

You clearly don't understand the issues faced by teachers. I could read comments from the Calgary Sun if I wanted to have an equivalent amount of insight into the teaching profession.

Worlds smallest violin playing "Cry me a river" right now.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

I could read comments from the Calgary Sun if I wanted to have an equivalent amount of insight into the teaching profession.

This made me laugh, a lot.

[Slava]

I haven't been a PC supporter but I think Prentice is bang on here. We have basically had the luxury of not paying enough taxes and relied upon resource revenue to fund our programs. When other parties have suggested otherwise, we've either ignored them or just laughed because we would never vote for them. We have no one else to blame for this IMO, and I obviously would prefer not to pay more taxes.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by polak

I despise children.

I never said it was easy. Just that their compensation isn't some sort of slave labor like they want you to believe every 3 or 4 years when the strike talk starts looming.

Most jobs aren't easy.

I'd love to be a doctor too if I didn't have to treat any patients.

So, just to clarify, contrary to your original post, you wouldn't GLADLY, not 100%, do the job for those perks.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by polak

Oh this I agree with. I've heard the horror stories. But thats exactly it! That proves my point. If teaching is such a terrible job, then why are there almost no free vacancies? My one friend who works in one of the poorest districts in Edmonton is ridiculously grateful.



Yup. I know one who has been working for 5-6 years and she's already making 67 grand a year with zero education.

K here we go....



PFFT. Nice try. Your second degree can be completely useless (most are). Go do a 4 year arts, psych or Kinese degree at Mount Royal and you're set. I'm pretty sure most teachers are people who took a stupid degree, realized that half way through and decided to get into teaching.



Whoopty do. I was expected to answer my work phone on my vacation in case #### really hits the fan. There are many professions that are always on call. The Formulators and Logistics people at my old job (feed mill) were on call 24/7, 7 days in a row. Then you would have 7 days of not being on call and then it was your turn again.

Sitting at your kitchen table and writing up a lesson plan is far from something they should be complaining about.



I never said they make too much money? I wouldn't complain if they got small raises. It's this "woe is me" attitude that is a piss-off.



Oh my god you have to write 35 different comments? #### I had no idea. That must be really difficult. Jesus. I get that it's not an easy job but that doesn't make them some sort of untouchable Gods that are exempt from economic troubles. You know who has it worse than the teachers? How about the one janitor that makes half of what the teachers make, has to put up with all of the kids anyways and has to clean up after them? You're acting like teachers are the only ones out there with tough jobs.

If it's so tough then why are there almost not available teaching jobs?






Worlds smallest violin playing "Cry me a river" right now

wow, push away from the keyboard.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I'd love to be a doctor too if I didn't have to treat any patients.

So, just to clarify, contrary to your original post, you wouldn't GLADLY, not 100%, do the job for those perks.

I said I would gladly work 3 hours extra a day in exchange for 3 months vacation during peak vacation times.

Maybe you should visit a teacher to talk about your reading comprehension?

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by polak

Oh this I agree with. I've heard the horror stories. But thats exactly it! That proves my point. If teaching is such a terrible job, then why are there almost no free vacancies? My one friend who works in one of the poorest districts in Edmonton is ridiculously grateful.

I think part of it has to do with the state of teaching in other provinces. Alberta might not be amazing, but if you're from Ontario or BC, Alberta is a place you dream about.

Universities have also been graduating far, far too many teachers.

[polak]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

wow, push away from the keyboard.

No man. I've had it with whining from teachers about being unfairly compensated. The whining:compensation ratio is off the freaking charts.

[octothorp]

He's right! Give us hell, Prentice!