Prentice Blames Albertans

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Please elaborate.

If your boss came to you with the following:

1. You are taking a massive pay cut.
2. Your work load is doubling.
3. You will have no additional resources.
4. Anything beyond a mediocre budget of a few hundred dollars will have to be funded by you personally (out of your after tax dollars, which by the way, you will have less of after your pay cut).
5. The board of directors has decided that for the fourth time in four years, to change the way in which you report performance.
6. To keep up, you will have to work even more overtime than you already do, which you don't get paid for.

What would your response be? I know what mine would be.

Sounds good, sign me up. Hell, it'll even be more pay from what I get now.

Have to partially agree with Prentice here. An an outsider looking in, I see tons of industries with above Canadian average wages all because they want a slice of the O&G pay scale and reap the rewards. Costs have inflated and let's be honest, some wages are just obscene for the work people actually do. Move elsewhere for the exact same job and you get a reality check where suddenly you scrape by and lost is the petty complaint about flex days. Meanwhile it's want want want instead of thinking ahead. I look at some unemployed people now who are worried about surviving and knowing how open they wallet was before, it's the exact mentality on how this province has been governed.

It's disgusting that we continue to be shocked that this can happen to us.

But I think the majority of the blame lies on the PC's and the corporate O&G. They have all taken advantage of the alberta advantage, bitched and moaned when we tried to make it sustainable, and now here we are.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by polak

I'm basing my answer from 3 teachers I know. All of whom have zero complaints. One of whom works in the poorest districts in Edmonton.

I would be extremely surprised if there were zero complaints from your friends, I haven't met a single teacher in my life that has zero complaints. This comment demonstrates your lack of information and understanding on the issues faced by teachers in our province.

Originally Posted by polak

All of your points mirror pretty much exactly what's happening in the private sector in O & G.

Agreed. This is happening throughout the private sector. However, in the private sector, have you received raises of 0%, 0%, and 2% over the past three years while receiving outstanding performance reviews? What about bonuses? Flex days? I assume you understand how inflation erodes purchasing power.

Originally Posted by polak

You're not going to hear a peep of sympathy from me for overtime with the guaranteed, hassle free vacation they get.

So you should not be compensated for time worked in excess of your contractual obligations? Got it.

You should also be expected to subsidize the education program with your after tax dollars? Got it.

Private sector employees are also guaranteed vacations, sick days, flex days. If a teacher needs a sub, they have to pay for it out of their pocket. How often to you think a teacher gets sick during a year because of working with children?

Inform yourself of the actual facts. A simple "yes" is ignorant.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Don't think for a second that Wild Rose would have handled this any better.

Don't think for a second that the Liberals would have handled this any better.


My statement is precisely as accurate as yours is.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by wooohooo

What about the amount we are paying Physicians?

It seems utterly ridiculous how much we spend paying them. They are a very important part of society and with the amount of Education for sure they should be well compensated. But to the amount they make, seems almost... unfair. In fact they just got a raise a month ago.

If there's anything that'll put us more in debt it's healthcare spending especially to Doctors. I have a lot (over 8) physicians in my family and they all agree that the system is broken, but they'll milk the system while it is.

I am sorry are you being serious with this post?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

He is right that Albertans are to blame. You keep voting in losers because of party he/she is affiliated with and you get stuck with the province being run by losers.

Didn't you lock in your vote for the wild rose a year ago for the next election?

[Red]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

I agree. Doctors are the issue here. Next we should see what we pay teachers.

Nevermind what tax loop holes and low tax rates business pays in Alberta. Those billions of dollars are just the price you pay for the Alberta advantage baby

Leave the rich alone, they need those breaks. Leave the rest to triple down economics. It works.

Plus the poor are already good at stretching the dollar. They have years of experience. The rich wouldn't know where to start, they'd be lost. That would be putting them at an unfair disadvantage.
http://www.upworthy.com/trickle-down...d-in-2-minutes

[Maccalus]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Agreed. This is happening throughout the private sector. However, in the private sector, have you received raises of 0%, 0%, and 2% over the past three years while receiving outstanding performance reviews? What about bonuses? Flex days? I assume you understand how inflation erodes purchasing power.



So you should not be compensated for time worked in excess of your contractual obligations? Got it.

You should also be expected to subsidize the education program with your after tax dollars? Got it.

Private sector employees are also guaranteed vacations, sick days, flex days. If a teacher needs a sub, they have to pay for it out of their pocket. How often to you think a teacher gets sick during a year because of working with children?

Inform yourself of the actual facts. A simple "yes" is ignorant.

Private Sector Employees are not necessarily guaranteed sick days, flex days, Pensions plans, Health or Dental plans or even EI in the case of layoff or maternity (Contract Workers).

The Private Sector is also larger than just Downtown Oil and Gas. Not everyone has seen the same large wage growth through the boom either. My father, being in the airline industry, as often joked that his lifestyle wouldn't change much when he retires because he has already been living on a fixed income for years (cost of living increases only came in in recent years for him).

I personally think Teachers are well compensated when you take into account the full benefits, pay and number of teachers available looking for those positions.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Please elaborate.

If your boss came to you with the following:

1. You are taking a massive pay cut.
2. Your work load is doubling.
3. You will have no additional resources.
4. Anything beyond a mediocre budget of a few hundred dollars will have to be funded by you personally (out of your after tax dollars, which by the way, you will have less of after your pay cut).
5. The board of directors has decided that for the fourth time in four years, to change the way in which you report performance.
6. To keep up, you will have to work even more overtime than you already do, which you don't get paid for.

What would your response be? I know what mine would be.

Umm... this seems very similar to what is going on at every oil company right now outside of number 4. I get that some teachers think they get a raw deal but those in the private sector put up with much of the same crap.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by polak

I'm basing my answer from 3 teachers I know. All of whom have zero complaints. One of whom works in the poorest districts in Edmonton.

All of your points mirror pretty much exactly what's happening in the private sector in O & G.

You're not going to hear a peep of sympathy from me for overtime with the guaranteed, hassle free vacation they get.

You really don't have any idea what you are talking about. There is a massive difference in workload between elementary, middle school and high school and there is no process in place to assure equal workload between teachers in any one school. I'm glad that your friends have it easy somehow, but the majority at the higher levels of education don't.

As for the 'hassle free' vacation. If you actually do the math, between after school programs, coaching, counseling, preparing classes and marking, there is an expectation by school administration that there would be 3 hours of additional work 5 days a week, which more than balances out the 'vacation' during the summer. During this vacation, there is also an expectation that the teacher will prepare a new class plan based on the yearly changes to policy and curriculum.

Because of the changes to the education system in the last 3-4 years the work that a teacher has to do outside of scheduled hours has nearly doubled for some teachers, because (partially) to unbalanced workloads within schools, increasing class sizes and unsustainable policy.

This doesn't take into consideration coded students, disabilities, English as a second language, classes blended through multiple grades, zero fail, multiple rewrites or entitled students and parents. All thrown into each class. And this get worse for new teachers, who are given the hardest classes to teach versus those with seniority, and are basically thrown into the fire.

Every year the teaching profession gets less and less desirable to work in Alberta.
No, I'm not a teacher.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Please elaborate.

If your boss came to you with the following:

1. You are taking a massive pay cut.
2. Your work load is doubling.
3. You will have no additional resources.
4. Anything beyond a mediocre budget of a few hundred dollars will have to be funded by you personally (out of your after tax dollars, which by the way, you will have less of after your pay cut).
5. The board of directors has decided that for the fourth time in four years, to change the way in which you report performance.
6. To keep up, you will have to work even more overtime than you already do, which you don't get paid for.

What would your response be? I know what mine would be.

1. 100% is a pretty massive pay cut, preceded by years of 0-2% raises.
2. Before getting laid off myself, I survived numerous rounds of layoffs that were all accompanied by the same "we have to do more with less" message.
3. Using software that was at least 5 years out of date and no hardware upgrades for 7 years. I've had to download trial software just to be able to open files supplied by outside sources in order to save to a lower version that my software could actually open.
4. Must be nice to have a spending budget without having to grovel for any discretionary spending.
5. Yup.
6. See point #2.

What would my response be? Looking for a new job, not by choice. Thanks for asking.

[Flash Walken]

I don't get that rationale, getbak.

"I'm suffering so everyone else should as well'?

It's like pointing at the high wager earners and saying they should earn less instead of saying maybe I should earn more.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by getbak

What would my response be? Looking for a new job, not by choice. Thanks for asking.

It's probably why attrition rates for new teachers are quite high.

40% for Teachers in the first 5 years.

[GGG]

I hope conservatives actually have the balls to create a 10 year plan to ween us off of Oil and Gas Revenues completely.

All oil and gas revenues should be put into savings and we should live off the interest. Since this is the lowest oil revenues have been in a while balance the budget based on current oil revenues and put any revenue as the price improves into the heritage fund.

Then over the next 10 years ween yourself of that amount. It likely means a PST, but after 10 to 15 years of not using oil revenue the interest in the fund will be worth more than oil is today.

So I hope this budget raises taxes, creates legislation on the maximum amount of dollars the budget recieves from oil money, freezes raises for a year or two and cuts 5% from all departments.

I want a real 10 year fiscal plan that eliminates reliance on oil revenue while maintaining important services that is funded through appropriate taxation.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't get that rationale, getbak.

"I'm suffering so everyone else should as well'?

It's like pointing at the high wager earners and saying they should earn less instead of saying maybe I should earn more.

Where did I say that? I answered the questions that were asked.

I'd love it if everyone who had the same qualifications as me were all happily employed because it would increase my chances of getting a new job.

[RubberDuck]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Please elaborate.

If your boss came to you with the following:

1. You are taking a massive pay cut.
2. Your work load is doubling.
3. You will have no additional resources.
4. Anything beyond a mediocre budget of a few hundred dollars will have to be funded by you personally (out of your after tax dollars, which by the way, you will have less of after your pay cut).
5. The board of directors has decided that for the fourth time in four years, to change the way in which you report performance.
6. To keep up, you will have to work even more overtime than you already do, which you don't get paid for.

What would your response be? I know what mine would be.

Just to qualify, O&G private sector employee not in downtown Calgary.

1. Have taken 4 pay cuts in the last decade and in the last two months have seen my take home drop 20%.
2. In O&G, workload doubling is called "moving up the ladder".
3. Have had to lay off half of my staff and are still expected to get the same amount of work done.
4. Morale is my problem , so any little things done for the staff is my problem too.
5. No comment.
6. In my world it's called the things you do to keep your job.

My response...thank you for keeping me employed.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by getbak

Where did I say that? I answered the questions that were asked.

I'd love it if everyone who had the same qualifications as me were all happily employed because it would increase my chances of getting a new job.

Sorry, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.

Just because you have it difficult though doesn't diminish that teachers may also have it difficult. I find many of these comparisons boil down to that.

The ####ty parts of your job don't invalidate the ####ty parts of someone elses.

I mean, I could turn it around and say is it my fault you chose a career in an industry with huge boom and bust cycles? That would be pretty offensive.

I guess I don't feel the need to run down someone else's ####ty job because mine is ####ty too. I just hope someone else gets a less ####ty job around the same time I do as well.

The theme of Alberta politics lately seems to be "we are paying doctors and teachers and public sector workers too much" when the conversation should be "maybe I should be making money in line with them, what's stopping me?"

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by GGG

Umm... this seems very similar to what is going on at every oil company right now outside of number 4. I get that some teachers think they get a raw deal but those in the private sector put up with much of the same crap.

Number 4 is a huge issue - why should any taxpayer have to subsidize the system beyond their proportionate fair share? This is an unfair redistribution of wealth (albeit one that many teachers accept as "part of the job").

I don't disagree that many of the points I brought up are being experienced in the private sector, and I think running a school board like a public company would be an excellent step; unions would never agree to that, which is unfortunate. There is a great documentary "Waiting for Superman" that I would recommend people watch - it deals with issues faced by teachers in the U.S., but I think there are several parallels to the teaching profession in general that apply..

Another point I haven't mentioned is burnout among teachers. Often, it affects teachers in their first 5 years (and usually the highest achievers). This results in a system in which those teachers that are content to do the bare minimum are the survivors.

As a taxpayer, who do you want teaching your children? A teacher who is content doing the bare minimum and providing a mediocre education, or one who goes above and beyond altruistically? Keep in mind, to do the latter, you have to work 10-14 hour days, subsidize the system, sacrifice your personal life, and deal with your profession getting dragged through the mud every three years.

The system is broken.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by RubberDuck

Just to qualify, O&G private sector employee not in downtown Calgary.

1. Have taken 4 pay cuts in the last decade and in the last two months have seen my take home drop 20%.
2. In O&G, workload doubling is called "moving up the ladder".
3. Have had to lay off half of my staff and are still expected to get the same amount of work done.
4. Morale is my problem , so any little things done for the staff is my problem too.
5. No comment.
6. In my world it's called the things you do to keep your job.

My response...thank you for keeping me employed.

I work in O&G finance and have done so my whole career. I am in the same boat as anyone else in the industry right now, and believe me I understand the pay cuts, downsizing, increased work loads, etc.

I regularly work overtime, weekends, and am studying for a professional designation. Speaking from direct, personal experience, the teacher I know works far harder than I do, and it still isn't enough (while getting paid far less).

[polak]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

You really don't have any idea what you are talking about. There is a massive difference in workload between elementary, middle school and high school and there is no process in place to assure equal workload between teachers in any one school. I'm glad that your friends have it easy somehow, but the majority at the higher levels of education don't.

As for the 'hassle free' vacation. If you actually do the math, between after school programs, coaching, counseling, preparing classes and marking, there is an expectation by school administration that there would be 3 hours of additional work 5 days a week, which more than balances out the 'vacation' during the summer. During this vacation, there is also an expectation that the teacher will prepare a new class plan based on the yearly changes to policy and curriculum.

Because of the changes to the education system in the last 3-4 years the work that a teacher has to do outside of scheduled hours has nearly doubled for some teachers, because (partially) to unbalanced workloads within schools, increasing class sizes and unsustainable policy.

This doesn't take into consideration coded students, disabilities, English as a second language, classes blended through multiple grades, zero fail, multiple rewrites or entitled students and parents. All thrown into each class. And this get worse for new teachers, who are given the hardest classes to teach versus those with seniority, and are basically thrown into the fire.

Every year the teaching profession gets less and less desirable to work in Alberta.
No, I'm not a teacher.

And the starting salary for teachers is what, 63K a year or something like that right? Much higher than most degrees pay straight out of University. Not to mention an outrageous pension plan and unmatched job security.

You just said that the hours balance out. I'd GLADLY 100% work 3 extra hours a day for a guaranteed 2 Weeks off during Christmas break, 1 week off during spring, 2 MONTHS off during the summer with additional time sprinkled in there and the freedom to call in a sub whenever you need too. Even if I had to do some light work during that time that is still incredible. Not only are those the most in demand and most difficult times to book off and the hardest time to deal with as a parent who normally has to work and figure out what to do with their kids, but it's also faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more vacation time then you could ever expect in the private sector, even if you worked for the same company for +20 years.

What do you expect here? You want them to be on some pedastool removed from the volitilaty of the economy? Whats your end game here? What do you believe is fair compensation?

Also, teaching is a very different profession by nature and only completely clueless people get into teaching without knowing what they're getting in to. All of your complaints have been common knowledge to the public for years. Teachers threatened to go on strike three times in my twelve years of grade school and actually did once. 40% attrition probably has a lot to do with people thinking they love kids and realizing how wrong they were.

There are far worse jobs that pay much less with far fewer perks.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by polak

You just said that the hours balance out. I'd GLADLY 100% work 3 extra hours a day for a guaranteed 2 Weeks off during Christmas break, 1 week off during spring, 2 MONTHS off during the summer with additional time sprinkled in there and the freedom to call in a sub whenever you need too.

If it's so easy, why don't you?