1 dead, 6 others injured at NYE shooting + 1 dead elsewhere - Somali connection

[cracher]

Is this even immigration related? The armed conflicts in Somalia (and, consequently, the exodus too) began in the late 1980s. If these victims are in their 20s, it is very possible that they were born here. That's as Canadian as you can get.

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[Ducay]

Originally Posted by cracher

Is this even immigration related? The armed conflicts in Somalia (and, consequently, the exodus too) began in the late 1980s. If these victims are in their 20s, it is very possible that they were born here. That's as Canadian as you can get.

Somalia has been in various states of civil war up until today. The stuff in the 90s you're trying to reference was when it picked up due to people finally having enough of Siad Barre.

Since then various clans, tribes, and religious groups have been fighting for control of the country basically non-stop. Its a pretty messed up place to this day, with lots of refugees leaving all the time.

So its not like Somalis left there only in the 90s and now its all good and these younger guys are all Canadian.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by driveway

Jesus tap-dancing Christ ... are people seriously arguing for a system of 'tiered' Citizenship in Canada? Do you not see how unimaginably bad an idea that is? I think it might be the worst idea I've ever heard and I once heard someone describe a restaurant idea where the customers would bring their own plates from home.

The incredibly obvious problems with this insanely stupid idea:

1. It violates section 15 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in such a profound way that we might as well throw out the whole document.

2. The staggering racism that would be involved in its application. "Oh, you're from a Commonwealth country, or a NAFTA nation? Well, you get right in, you have a 'Reasonable Nation-of-Origin Exception' wait... it's not Mexico or Swaziland is it? ...oh, okay, you're good."

3.The monstrous cost of the appeals process that would result if someone were identified for forfeiture of Citizenship.

4. The potential for this to result in forfeiture of Citizenship for dual-citizens. "Oh, you went and fought against the Asad regime in Syria ... yeah... they're kinda on our side now against ISIS.. so... yeah... if you could just stay there that would be great."

5. The massive disincentive this would cause for desirable immigration into Canada. "Oh, I would come to Canada with my two PhD's and my husband who has a Masters in Engineering, but our teenage son is 17 and kind of a moron, we're worried about him doing something stupid and losing Citizenship; New Zealand it is!"

And finally, to reiterate my first point, IT VIOLATES THE CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS.

This idea is worse than Edmonton.

I just want to say that I am not really arguing for it, but just putting the idea out there as an inexperienced bystander. I'll note that you're against it though! I have no idea, so could you explain how this violates the charter? Frankly, saying we will take you as a citizen except if your killing other people, running drugs or other violent acts doesn't seem like a very high bar for would be immigrants. As far as a disincentive though, this applies to those exact people we don't need here. How many incredibly intelligent, brilliant people are going to reconsider coming here because they can't murder and rape people without losing their newly acquired citizenship?

[ExiledFlamesFan]

How long does it typically take these refugees to get citizenship?

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by Slava

I just want to say that I am not really arguing for it, but just putting the idea out there as an inexperienced bystander. I'll note that you're against it though! I have no idea, so could you explain how this violates the charter?

Section 15 guarantees equality rights.

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

What you're proposing would discriminate based on national/ethnic origin.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

Section 15 guarantees equality rights.



What you're proposing would discriminate based on national/ethnic origin.

Yeah, you can try to dress it up any way you like, but all boils down to bigotry and discrimination.

[cracher]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Somalia has been in various states of civil war up until today. The stuff in the 90s you're trying to reference was when it picked up due to people finally having enough of Siad Barre.

Since then various clans, tribes, and religious groups have been fighting for control of the country basically non-stop. Its a pretty messed up place to this day, with lots of refugees leaving all the time.

So its not like Somalis left there only in the 90s and now its all good and these younger guys are all Canadian.

55000 arrived in Canada between 1988 and 1996. Without knowing anything else, I doubt going after immigration is a comprehensive approach for the 20 y/o demographic (unless people are getting sterilized upon entry). Can this not be targeted with education/after school programs? The few news items I read refer to the victims as Somali-Canadians. The issue is not strictly with the newcomers.

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[Dan02]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yeah, you can try to dress it up any way you like, but all boils down to bigotry and discrimination.

I'm confused how being involved in organized crime and/or violent criminal offences have anything to do with bigotry and discrimination.

I think a very good point was made by Flameswin, once we give them full citizenship status they should be punished exactly the same as any Canadian.

That being said, looking it up, you can recieve full citizenship after only 3 years. Maybe the length of time should be increased before full citizenship should be granted. I think a longer period of time of having to be a model permanent resident might help weed out some of the problem cases.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Dan02

I'm confused how being involved in organized crime and/or violent criminal offences have anything to do with bigotry and discrimination.

I think a very good point was made by Flameswin, once we give them full citizenship status they should be punished exactly the same as any Canadian.

That being said, looking it up, you can recieve full citizenship after only 3 years. Maybe the length of time should be increased before full citizenship should be granted. I think a longer period of time of having to be a model permanent resident might help weed out some of the problem cases.

Agreed, make them wait 5-7 years for citizenship and deport any permanent resident convicted of a serious crime.

Once you are a Canadian citizen you're a Canadian citizen, but if you break serious laws while you are waiting you should be sent back to the sh-thole you came from.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

Agreed, make them wait 5-7 years for citizenship and deport any permanent resident convicted of a serious crime.

Once you are a Canadian citizen you're a Canadian citizen, but if you break serious laws while you are waiting you should be sent back to the sh-thole you came from.

Not all immigrants come from ####holes

Time frame, I would use 7-10 years though.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Dan02

Not all immigrants come from ####holes

Most refugees do. Mogadishu is a sh-thole by every imaginable measure.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Dan02

I'm confused how being involved in organized crime and/or violent criminal offences have anything to do with bigotry and discrimination.

I think a very good point was made by Flameswin, once we give them full citizenship status they should be punished exactly the same as any Canadian.

That being said, looking it up, you can recieve full citizenship after only 3 years. Maybe the length of time should be increased before full citizenship should be granted. I think a longer period of time of having to be a model permanent resident might help weed out some of the problem cases.

I was referring to CC's idea of having two-tiered citizenship.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yeah, you can try to dress it up any way you like, but all boils down to bigotry and discrimination.

Well I am definitely not bigoted at all. I think that regardless of your nationality or ethnic background that people are opposed to crime though. I also don't think it's discriminatory to suggest that people convicted of certain crimes are no longer eligible for citizenship. Maybe you can point out what I'm missing?

[BigNumbers]

The answer to this is to extend the period within within which a new immigrant is a Permanent Resident ("PR"). Require them to be PR's for 10-15 years with no criminal convictions before they can apply for citizenship. Basically a 'keep your nose clean for 10-15 years' requirement. Require that they are off any social assistance 3(?) years before they can apply for citizenship. This requires that they are contributing to our country before they are granted citizenship.

Also, enforce a '1 strike and you're out' clause on all PRs - so if they commit a crime, they are deported.

Make folks walk the straight and narrow for a decade if they want to be Canadian, IMO. We only need law abiding folks obtaining citizenship here - and doing something as above, on all immigrants, would be fair and equal. I don't care if the f***wits come from Mogadishu or Glasgow, the above would ensure we only keep the ones we want, IMO.

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by BigNumbers

The answer to this is to extend the period within within which a new immigrant is a Permanent Resident ("PR"). Require them to be PR's for 10-15 years with no criminal convictions before they can apply for citizenship. Basically a 'keep your nose clean for 10-15 years' requirement. Require that they are off any social assistance 3(?) years before they can apply for citizenship. This requires that they are contributing to our country before they are granted citizenship.

Also, enforce a '1 strike and you're out' clause on all PRs - so if they commit a crime, they are deported.

Make folks walk the straight and narrow for a decade if they want to be Canadian, IMO. We only need law abiding folks obtaining citizenship here - and doing something as above, on all immigrants, would be fair and equal. I don't care if the f***wits come from Mogadishu or Glasgow, the above would ensure we only keep the ones we want, IMO.

So can we start revoking the citizenships of the Canadian f***wits then too? Or are we ok with them breaking the law and not walking the straight and narrow? Can we revoke citizenship of those Canadians who can't keep themselves off social assistance as well?

If we do decide to treat some individuals as lesser people, we should make them easily identifiable. Little armbands or badges should do the trick nicely.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

So can we start revoking the citizenships of the Canadian f***wits then too? Or are we ok with them breaking the law and not walking the straight and narrow? Can we revoke citizenship of those Canadians who can't keep themselves off social assistance as well?

If we do decide to treat some individuals as lesser people, we should make them easily identifiable. Little armbands or badges should do the trick nicely.

This isn't about revoking Canadian citizenships. It's about not allowing convicts to become Canadian citizens. Big difference.

Your Nazi comparison is ridiculous.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

This isn't about revoking Canadian citizenships. It's about not allowing convicts to become Canadian citizens. Big difference.

I would assume convicts can't become Canadian citizens anyway, no?

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Cameron Swift

I would assume convicts can't become Canadian citizens anyway, no?

I hope not.

Making people wait a few years for the privilege of becoming a Canadian citizen and asking that they don't commit violent crimes or sell drugs isn't asking for much.

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by Cameron Swift

I would assume convicts can't become Canadian citizens anyway, no?

So long as you have not been convicted of an indictable offense or offence under the Citizenship Act in the three or so years leading up to the application, you can apply. You can't apply if you're in prison or have a sentence that is currently active, any time spend in prison or on parole/probation doesn't count towards time spent in Canada. I'd be willing to bet that if you've been convicted of a crime that is serious, then you're application probably won't go too far.

As a PR, you can already face a removal order upon conviction. If you are under a removal order, you can't apply for citizenship. As a PR, you are afforded all the protection of the Charter, something which should not change.

[BigNumbers]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

So can we start revoking the citizenships of the Canadian f***wits then too? Or are we ok with them breaking the law and not walking the straight and narrow? Can we revoke citizenship of those Canadians who can't keep themselves off social assistance as well?

If we do decide to treat some individuals as lesser people, we should make them easily identifiable. Little armbands or badges should do the trick nicely.

You're an odd cat. If you're not a citizen and you want to be, you better be a model 'citizen' if you want to become one. Pretty simple. You can't really renege citizenship (unless it was obtained under false pretenses, and a few other reasons) - so your example is pretty vapid. My suggestion, in concept, is easily instituted and doesn't infringe on the Charter.

Your comment on the otherhand is summed up as a...


Also - that should be your avatar.