Should the City reconsider the snow removal policy? [Split from weather]

[Kerplunk]

Originally Posted by Sliver

It wasn't a joke.

I will admit I didn't see the roads in the NE; however, not all winter tires are created equal, which is why I specified Blizzak as they're one of the better brands.

My old '87 Celica GTS with Blizzaks on the front only could literally plow snow. I'd bet money I could get through any road in Calgary without getting stuck in a Corolla with Blizzaks.

Ya, the NE was hit pretty bad. A little bit down the street there really was no road until a front end loader came around to plow off the community hall parking lot, and had to dig his way there when he realized there was no hope of driving over or around the snow pile (came up to the cab, at least). Spent a good chunk of time digging a 20 meter lane to the entrance.....after getting stuck.

[Bunk]

We made substantial changes to the snow removal policy in 2011, I think changes that have really been beneficial.

This storm however, was different than most we face (even ones with very high volumes of snow). The combination of true blizzard conditions, with high winds and extensive drifting, followed by persistent extreme low temperatures, some melting conditions and then further snow, as the Mayor put it, exposed some weaknesses in our system. For instance we lack the equipment to adequately deal with such drifting.

But, we know this is really, really important so we'll continue to tweak and change as required.


Just now from the Mayor's Facebook Page:

https://www.facebook.com/NaheedNenshi

It’s been a rough ride on city streets over the past week. On Monday, for example, I was stuck in traffic for so long during the morning commute that I had to give a keynote speech over the phone (hands-free of course). I have driven these streets in all four quadrants and I know what you are going through.

While crews have been working 24/7 for the last nine days, we have not kept up as well as any of us want.

It has been approximately 10 years since Calgary has seen a blizzard of the same magnitude we experienced on December 2. The wind blowing the snow, even more so than the snow itself, made for conditions very different from what we normally face. Making matters worse, the cold snap that followed turned that snow to ice; the roads were literally frozen solid.

Our clean-up efforts have also been hampered by several other snow falls that have occurred since the blizzard; as we were finishing the priority 1 (major) and priority 2 (most bus routes) roads and started on the residential roads, it would snow again and we would have to pull the equipment back on to the major roads.

As you may recall, Council made a major change to our snow removal policy in 2011. We permanently increased the budget by a third, and started ploughing residential streets for the first time. (Prior to 2011, they were never done, now they are done after the major roads are completed.) For the most part, the new system is working very well, and this shows in our performance measures and in citizen satisfaction with the service.

This week has certainly exposed some weaknesses, particularly in how we prioritize residential streets that are completely impassable - as we saw in some northeast neighbourhoods - and how we help those with mobility difficulties manage windrows and snow drifts. But I think the fundamental tenets of the system remain strong.

I’m also thankful that Calgarians have been driving safely. On an average weekday in Calgary, we see about 150 collisions. During the worst of this storm, we saw numbers in the low 200s. This is still too many, but it is actually lower than many would have expected.

We do need to do better. Good snow removal is important to you and you would like a level of service that allows you to leave your neighbourhood, or even get out of your driveway.

In the meantime, our crews are out there doing everything they can to clear the streets. Please continue to drive safely for the conditions, and contact 311 with particular trouble spots. As the snow eases off, we should be able to address those quickly.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I know in Winnipeg the fund carries over year by year. So if they have $50M set aside and only use $45M, the next year they have $55M available. Most of the time it works out, as one year you have less snow and the next year you have more.

This is essentially the system we set up here in 2011 - with a reserve account (along with the $11m boost in budget).

[Ace]

Argh, second week having recycling skipped because of snow!! Do I get a tax refund or something

[HockeyIlliterate]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Just now from the Mayor's Facebook Page:

https://www.facebook.com/NaheedNenshi

I’m also thankful that Calgarians have been driving safely. On an average weekday in Calgary, we see about 150 collisions. During the worst of this storm, we saw numbers in the low 200s. This is still too many, but it is actually lower than many would have expected.

That statement strikes me as being quite misleading. How many cars are on the road on an average weekday in Calgary? And how many cars do you think were on the road "during the worst of this storm"?

I don't see how the accident rates can be accurately compared without knowing the cars-on-the-road number.

[Drunk Skunk]

This may be off topic, but it may not be off topic -

Just curious what, if anything, the city of Calgary does in regards to sidewalks/paved paths throughout the city. If they do clear them, what sort of equipment is used?

Also, if anyone knows the details about what product(s) is used on the streets, or details about other removal things, please message me.

[stampsx2]

Or we could be winnipeg, where once the snow is completely removed of the roads down to the bare pavement, they continue to scrape the road. The sparks create quite the light show. Happens more than you think. Almost a winnipeg tradition.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Or we could be winnipeg, where once the snow is completely removed of the roads down to the bare pavement, they continue to scrape the road. The sparks create quite the light show. Happens more than you think. Almost a winnipeg tradition.

Happens in Calgary plenty too. I always wonder, are they monitored by GPS on how long they've plowed in a shift? Wouldn't it just be easier to lift the blade and not spend 20 minutes scraping asphalt.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Or we could be winnipeg, where once the snow is completely removed of the roads down to the bare pavement, they continue to scrape the road. The sparks create quite the light show. Happens more than you think. Almost a winnipeg tradition.

I see it all the time here as well

[SebC]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I wish the city would subcontract the entire thing to a contractor like Carmacks, they do a very good job on Deerfoot and Stoney Trail compared with major routes done by the city. Is the issue with the city a lack of gear or man-power, I don't get why the difference is so substantial.

I'm guessing it has something to do with the province taxing income at 10%, and getting resource royalties on top of that.

[fredr123]

Earlier this week I heard a representative for the insurance industry lamenting how much it is going to cost them as a result of all the collisions during the snow storm the past week or so (cue hints at higher premiums).

Insurance companies already mess around with storm clouds in the summer, seeding clouds to help prevent damaging hail storms. Would they be interested in taking to the streets with plows and sanding equipment to help reduce collisions and claims during snowstorms?

I understand why the City would be reluctant to allow private citizens to slap a blade on their pickup and plow their own neighborhoods. However, whatever resources the insurance companies set to the task would likely be professional, insured, and cooperate with City efforts. It would be a proactive effort on the part of insurance companies to mitigate future claims and wouldn't cost the City a dime.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by fotze

What about a gas tax? Directly proportional to the amount of roads you use.

Toll roads. No one wants them, but this is a perfect case in point where a toll makes sense.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Slava

Toll roads. No one wants them, but this is a perfect case in point where a toll makes sense.

I disagree. Gas tax makes way more sense.

Tolls require way more overhead to administer, and you either slow down roads and capacity with toll plazas, or distribute electronic tags or start mailing things to people without tags at 85 cents a pop.

Gas tax also has the additional benefit of incentivizing fuel efficient vehicles.

[FlamesKickAss]

don't we have enough tax on gasoline already?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

I disagree. Gas tax makes way more sense.

Tolls require way more overhead to administer, and you either slow down roads and capacity with toll plazas, or distribute electronic tags or start mailing things to people without tags at 85 cents a pop.

Gas tax also has the additional benefit of incentivizing fuel efficient vehicles.

We already have gas taxes though, and it sure doesn't seem to be enough to fund the ongoing maintenance required. A toll road works because the company (uh oh, I'm hinting at private!), wants you to drive on their roads. More cars means more money, and consumers will pay the extra for a clear driving surface.

[Canehdianman]

How about buying a shovel and using it? I helped several neighbours get their vehicles out during the blizzard. Some of them were even capable of shoveling themselves out. After an hour or two, there weren't any cars stuck in my cul-de-sac.

Or equipping your vehicle for winter weather? Our car has winter tires (never saw a need for the 4x4 truck). After the shoveling stopped, I proceeded to drive around town for 3 weeks (in a truck and a low clearance car) and not gotten stuck, or rear-ended someone, or slid off the road. Clearly I am just very lucky.

It GMG that everyone's solution to every problem is to expect someone else to fix it.

If someone doesn't want to shovel their vehicle out, then take the bus/call a cab/phone a friend.
If someone doesn't properly equip their vehicle for winter, then they can get stuck and/or into an accident.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Slava

We already have gas taxes though, and it sure doesn't seem to be enough to fund the ongoing maintenance required. A toll road works because the company (uh oh, I'm hinting at private!), wants you to drive on their roads. More cars means more money, and consumers will pay the extra for a clear driving surface.

What is more convenient:

Paying a higher gas tax at the pump, or getting a seperate toll bill every month?


The city can still use the money to hire private contractors to clear the road and to perform road maintenance.

Snow clearing should be about safety, not profit. I'd rather the City determine a service level for the private contractor than the contractor run the math on whether or not it's worth it to plow Crowchild at 3AM on December 25 because it's cheaper to not plow and only upset a very few customers who face dangerous driving conditions.

[Slava]

Well pure convenience, I'm fine cutting back the snow clearing to skip the residential areas and letting people fend for themselves. Put some more snow fencing in areas like Skyview Ranch and trouble spots, and stick to main and secondary roads.

[Flamenspiel]

I have to say i was quite satisfied with the snow cleaning and a great job by the city. Although I have a sedan with snow tires it was good to see all the SUVs and trucks being put to good use for a change. No change required.

[Erick Estrada]

I'm not sure what people are complaining about. This is probably the worst two winter weeks we have had in years and people are acting like it's the end of the world. We don't get nearly as much snow as other Canadian cities and this is more a function of Calgary drivers being poor and a penchant to complain about everything.

Side streets aren't that great but it's on you to ensure your vehicle is equipped for winter. If you have a RWD BMW or a tin can econobox with all-season tires you have nobody to blame but yourself for having issues. Winter tires aren't that expensive when you break them down into how many winters they will last you and while I feel for the small amount of Calgarians that possibly can't afford to properly equip their cars the fact of the matter is most of the loudest complainers have the money.

This isn't a flood this is winter in Canada for crying out loud. Boo hoo!