Is Coaching the Biggest Problem?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Before Boudreau got there they were well bellow .500. Considering they didn't change the team that much if at all last year , that he is a huge step in the right direction.

There top players played like crap last season and he still coached them to a over .500 record says something.

He got them back into the playoff hunt after that disastrous start last season and the momentum has carried into this season. He's definitely deserves some credit for the turnaround.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Locke

I want to be clear, I'm not ragging on you. I've followed your posts for a while, particularly during the lockout so I know you arent full of it, I know that you know what you're talking about.

I'm just saying that you are discounting too much of the intangibles that made 2004 happen.



And its been reproduced a grand total of how many times? The planets lined up and everything came together at the right time and.....magic happened.

Seriously, this was a team that hadnt made the playoffs in 7 years, made the playoffs, went on a run, got subsequently bounced in the first round for the next 5 years and now hasnt made the playoffs in 4.

If that run wasnt magic what would you call it? Why do you think the players had all these different little awards and routines to try and re-create it?

That run was the outlier in the statistical story of the Calgary Flames.

It may not have been pure magic, but its close enough to be indistinguishable thereof.

Thanks, and did not think you were.

Definitely not discounting the intangibles - couldn't be more aware that everything has to come together for a team to go deep. However, that is true of every team every year (look at Van last year).

I was a Leaf fan growing up, then 20 years in Wpg as a Jets fan, and a Flame fan since the Jets left and I moved to Calgary. Since 1967 with the Leafs (which I don't count since I was young and didn't realy understand), I was more confident in the '04 Flames than any other team I have ever cheered for. Actually really believed (before the playoffs started) that they were going to win it all. Only time I have ever really felt/believed that in my life.

Starting to think that I will never see my team win the cup.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Before Boudreau got there they were well bellow .500. Considering they didn't change the team that much if at all last year , that he is a huge step in the right direction.

There top players played like crap last season and he still coached them to a over .500 record says something.

If coaches have the ability to turn a lottery pick team into a top 3 team simply by some tweaks then why are they making less than Blake Comeau? I mean, GMs are far more tuned into what drives a team's performance than we are, so why has no GM prioritized coaching to the point that they're willing to shell out real money on them? Surely someone would take advantage of the market inefficiency that exists if the difference between the best coaches and average ones with the same roster was worth more than a win or two over an 82 game season.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by opendoor

If coaches have the ability to turn a lottery pick team into a top 3 team simply by some tweaks then why are they making less than Blake Comeau? I mean, GMs are far more tuned into what drives a team's performance than we are, so why has no GM prioritized coaching to the point that they're willing to shell out real money on them? Surely someone would take advantage of the market inefficiency that exists if the difference between the best coaches and average ones with the same roster was worth more than a win or two over an 82 game season.

A plethora of reasons. Coaches salaries aren't made public, no one pays to see a coach behind the bench or a Bob Hartley jersey. Do you know coaches salaries, how can you say teams aren't shelling out for the good ones?

Coaching can make all the difference in the world.

[MyFlamesFirst]

It doesn't take four guys to screw in a light bulb. Maybe just maybe the light bulb is broken.

[gvitaly]

I think the biggest thing that is wrong with this team is that they forgot that they hate to lose. The team treats a loss like something that is natural and is a part of the game. As a result of that attitude the Flames lack a 'killer instinct' if you will, they lack a push back in the end of games they trail or the ability to put teams away.

If it is because of the coach or the players I have no idea, because I don't have access to the inside of the locker room.

[zamler]

This team lacks leadership, it became painfully obvious after D. Sutter left the bench to become GM.

[Timbo]

The whole problem is geographical... because we are in such close proximity to Edmonton (the identified bunghole of the post 2k hockey universe) we are just suffering collateral damage.

Seriously though, sustaining a culture of winning is very tough with the challenges Canadian teams have endured over the last 20 years.

I'm not sure that the playing field is as level as it used to be. By that comment I mean dilution of talent and competition of quality of life for the players, be it a more dynamic city or enjoying climatic advantages... not to mention the previous economic perks.

Obtaining talent in the 80's is largely different then it is now. Will good/great players come to Calgary?

[Oil Stain]

I think the Flames roster is a bigger problem then coaching.

I think fans of teams generally have high expectations for their teams, and the coach is the first to take the blame when the team doesn't live up to those expectations.

There are a bunch of fans in Edmonton blaming Krueger for everything under the sun this season, when the Oilers obviously don't have a playoff roster.

[SebC]

Flames are 11th in goals/game, 12th in shots against/game. Goaltending is the biggest problem.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by SebC

Flames are 11th in goals/game, 12th in shots against/game. Goaltending is the biggest problem.

Never change, SebC.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by SebC

Flames are 11th in goals/game, 12th in shots against/game. Goaltending is the biggest problem.

Forwards coming back and playing in their own zone is the biggest problem. To many floaters. Also no size and grit to this team.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by pylon

The biggest problem is the fact that the team went on a 1 in a 1000 fluke run 8 years ago, and everyone has assumed that is the metric to compare the team to. They were a mediocre team in 04, that found some magic, and now you have the same mediocre core, older and performing to their true abilities.

Yes. The 2006 team was better than the 2004 team. They were very unfortunate to lose to Anaheim in the first round.

[FlamesAddiction]

Yep... that 2004 run had as chasing the dragon until we became the wasted junkie we are now.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

A plethora of reasons. Coaches salaries aren't made public, no one pays to see a coach behind the bench or a Bob Hartley jersey. Do you know coaches salaries, how can you say teams aren't shelling out for the good ones?

Coaching can make all the difference in the world.

Babcock is apparently the highest paid coach in the NHL at around $2M, so that should give a pretty good idea of what they're making. If GMs honestly thought a better coach could have a massive impact on their team they would be paying exorbitant sums to attract them because the payoff would be millions. I mean, even Sidney Crosby isn't capable of single-handedly driving the results that people often ascribe to coaches.

I guess I just don't see how going from one good coach in Carlyle to another in Boudreau can possibly be what's behind their results, especially when their underlying numbers are actually worse than last season. To me it's pretty clear what's happening; their top players are playing much better and they're getting excellent goaltending that they didn't have last year. Now some people might ascribe that to Boudreau, but I don't buy it given that about 65% of their stars' crappy seasons last year (60 points for Perry, 57 for Getzlaf, .910 sv% for Hiller) were with Boudreau behind the bench.

Also problematic is the fact that Carlyle has the same narrative surrounding him in Toronto. So if he was capable of completely turning around the Maple Leafs like people are crediting him with then why couldn't he achieve those results with Anaheim?

There are certainly instances where changing a can have a big impact. For instance if the coach has lost the room or he's simply not an NHL caliber head coach then it can lead to markedly different results. That's what I see as what happened in Ottawa. It's not that MacLean is an unprecedentedly good coach, it's more that he's a great coach that replaced a string of poor ones who are predictably not employed as coaches in the NHL anymore. I think most good coaches would likely achieve similar results to what MacLean has.

So I'm not saying there's no impact. I'm just saying that coaches generally get far too much blame when things go poorly and credit when things go well. Boudreau was considered a buffoon with Washington (no thanks to 24/7) and now he's a genius. When Quenneville coached St. Louis and Colorado he was viewed as a guy that couldn't get it done in the playoffs and then he wins a cup in his 2nd year with Chicago. Julien struggled and got fired (and I'd argue scapegoated) twice in 2 years and now he's considered one of the best.

[Poe969]

Coaching isn't the only problem just like our GM isn't the only problem just like our players aren't the only problem.

Their all the problem....

[Yoho]

We have all had good and bad coaches, who's decisions on rosters, style of play, player positions, practice, and motivation have effected the team in positive or negative ways.

I agree that if you had the exact same team, players, and strategies similar results would be achieved, regardless of who is behind the bench however there are so many nuisances into the "art" of coaching.


What is your point do you think we should start removing coaches from behind the bench?

[Spinach]

There was a recent call on Overtime that summed up this overemphasis on coaching:

Caller - Hi Pat, you know if there's anything really wrong with this team, it's the coach.

Pat Steinberg - OK, can you explain why you think it's the coach?

Caller - I just do. I think the reason for the bad record is coaching.

Steinberg - Well, there could be a number of reasons why these guys may have disappointed so far. Lack of x, lack of y, lack of z, failure to execute, goaltending concerns.

Caller - Naw, I think it's the coach.

Steinberg - Tell us more. What is it about the coaching that you think is lacking?

Caller - It's the coach.

Steinberg - Alright, well thanks for the call...

[Johnny Rotten]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Yep... that 2004 run had as chasing the dragon until we became the wasted junkie we are now.

As great as that run for us (and I'd say the same thing for the Oilers in their run), in the long run I think the '03-'04 season raised expectations way too high. And these past few years have been a result of that I think.

[zamler]

The goodwill from the 2004 run that persists to this day is especially bizarre considering we lost. Sure the Flames in theory had no business even making it to the finals, but we LOST. In a way it encapsulates this organization, just happy to even get to the dance.