Mandatory sentencing for marijuana went into effect today

[vektor]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Back when I dabbled in it, I always thought that I was going to be the 1st person to die from it. I was that guy... I think there is one in every bunch (which is why I don't do it anymore). I just couldn't handle the paranoia.

haha yeah, it can do that to certain people. One friend actually had an allergic reaction and puked, first and last time for him.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Playing video games doesn't impair your judgement. Like I said before I like the stuff in moderation but I'm taking an unselfish view on this topic. There's just no way you are going to convince me that the consequences of video game addiction is remotely close to what drug addiction can do to a person.

deaths from video game abuse:

atleast 5

deaths from marijuana:

0

but go on, tell me how World of Warcraft is not as bad as pot. And videogames can most definitely impair judgement, anything that is addictive can impair judgement. Also, pot isn't stereotyped as causing bad decisions, that's alcohol.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Playing video games doesn't impair your judgement. Like I said before I like the stuff in moderation but I'm taking an unselfish view on this topic. There's just no way you are going to convince me that the consequences of video game addiction is remotely close to what drug addiction can do to a person.

Addictive people will always find a vice wether it be drugs, alcohol, video games, sex, etc but drugs alter judgement and people without addictive personalities can easily get addicted. Like I said I've seen first hand what it can do and I don't want that to be an easy rout for my kids to follow by legalizing it.

But really though, almost any 14-18 year old kid can get pot almost as easy or easier than alcohol even as one of them is totally illegal while the other just illegal for their age. If you think pot is hard to get for Jr. High/High School kids....well its not haha. Its exceedingly simple.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

But since its been proven time and again you cannot stop people from drinking or doing drugs, why should we restrict them?

We aren't restricting them. Like you said we can't stop them. If I want to purchase an 1/8th I can do so easily any day of the week. I'm okay with those people keeping with their lifestyles. I just don't want it made very easy for everyone to lead that lifestyle.

[vektor]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

We aren't restricting them. Like you said we can't stop them. If I want to purchase an 1/8th I can do so easily any day of the week. I'm okay with those people keeping with their lifestyles. I just don't want it made very easy for everyone to lead that lifestyle.

it already is very easy. What we need is education for kids, tell them the truths about the actual negative effects. Not the "it will make you lazy/stupid/crazy" fear mongering, educate kids that it can negatively effect mental development and how. We will never ever be able to stop people who want it from getting it, but we can teach kids that it can be both good and bad and that it's dangerous to smoke it while you are under 21. That would be the science based logical approach that doesn't cost the country millions on fighting it.

[wookster]

Originally Posted by gargamel

When's the last time you bought alcohol from a bootlegger?

did you even read what I wrote? your arguing apples and oranges because as I said, drug dealers aren't going to go away because they will still be selling other illegal drugs instead. I'm not aware of any other illegal forms of alcohol that I would need to go to a bootlegger for so that kind of makes your point mute. By my argument, the only way to make drug dealers go away is to make all forms of drugs legal...

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Like I said I've seen first hand what it can do and I don't want that to be an easy rout for my kids to follow by legalizing it.

First off just because you have two examples of people living homely lives who happened to smoke pot is laughable. There are plenty of successful people that smoke pot, most just hide it because, you know, it's illegal. Politian’s, lawyers, judges, etc. all have people in their ranks that smoke pot. Are Richard Branson and Ted Turner successful because they smoke pot? No! I would never make that correlation because just like yours it's ridiculous.

As for kids again studies have shown that decriminalization (even though I think legalization is the better option) have shown a drop in use for kids. It becomes harder to get when it is regulated. It is easier for kids to get marijuana than it is alcohol because of that reason. Drug dealers don't ask for ID, just money. If you want your kids to stay away from drugs than you educate them, you don't try and hide.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

We aren't restricting them. Like you said we can't stop them. If I want to purchase an 1/8th I can do so easily any day of the week. I'm okay with those people keeping with their lifestyles. I just don't want it made very easy for everyone to lead that lifestyle.

[wookster]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Of course there is going to be a demand for other drugs however that demand has never been, and will never be, as high as marijuana. It is something like 80% of the organized crime in BC, and over 65% of the organized crime in Mexico are funded by just marijuana (heard on CBC program, can't find link yet). If you take that revenue stream away you take away money to fund harsher crimes.

Along with that because criminals will always be criminals you are giving more resources to the police because they are not chasing around a basically harmless drug. You can spend more on education and treatment for all drugs including marijuana and alcohol.

I see what your saying, I think I saw that program as well, but I really think that since marijuana and "organized crime" are so intertwined that even if you make it legal the money will still flow into their pockets. Your basically just putting up a "front" for them to legalize part of their operation. Because like you mentioned, it is lucrative, they will still want a "piece of the action". but since their profit margin for selling it legally will be much lower, they are still going to indulge in other activities to make keep their profits higher.

Maybe Im completely off base, maybe all the drug dealers in the country will just pick up and become honest businessmen overnight and that will be that.

[vektor]

Originally Posted by wookster

I see what your saying, I think I saw that program as well, but I really think that since marijuana and "organized crime" are so intertwined that even if you make it legal the money will still flow into their pockets. Your basically just putting up a "front" for them to legalize part of their operation. Because like you mentioned, it is lucrative, they will still want a "piece of the action". but since their profit margin for selling it legally will be much lower, they are still going to indulge in other activities to make keep their profits higher.

Maybe Im completely off base, maybe all the drug dealers in the country will just pick up and become honest businessmen overnight and that will be that.

most of the pot comes from individuals growing pot in their basement. Something like 1/100 hundred houses growing in BC. Make it legal and that goes completely belly up, the large majority of growers would no longer make any money from narcotics sales at all. The pcp, meth, crack, cocaine and heroin dealer is the minority, so much so that I've never even seen one. Most dealers sell pot only. If it were on a store shelf that 20k a year would now be in the economy instead of under a mattress or wherever they hide it.

[Erick Estrada]

Look I don't want to offend the resident pot heads as it's not like I would stand in a picket line and protest legalization. Heck I would probably take advantage of it if it was legalized. However I know that I can control myself as I already steered myself from heading down that road just like I easily quit smoking cigarettes. However a lot of people don't have my discipline which is why I am on the fence on this topic. I just have legitimate concerns regarding the implications of legalizing the stuff. I really haven't heard any of you come forth with any solid reasons outside of; alcohol or video games are legal, why not pot? Sorry but that's not good enough to sway me in favour.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by vektor

incorrect.

Deaths caused by Alcohol poisoning in the US in one year:

80,000
http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm


Deaths caused by marijuana ever:

0

Where is there room for debate?

Now add in deaths due to drunk driving, serious fights at bars where alcohol was a factor, productivity lost to hangover (sick days), spousal abuse from people while drunk, etc and you can see alcohol's negative impact in many areas.

Not to mention for me my immune system gets super run down due to heavy drinking and I have noticed a strong correlation in my life between heavy drinking and getting colds/sick.

I've met a lot of alcholics and a lot of stoners and while weed does have some negatives I think they are dwarfed by the negatives that heavy drinking produces. All drugs can be abused. Alcohol abuse can be life wrecking and its legal.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Look I don't want to offend the resident pot heads as it's not like I would stand in a picket line and protest legalization. Heck I would probably take advantage of it if it was legalized. However I know that I can control myself as I already steered myself from heading down that road just like I easily quit smoking cigarettes. However a lot of people don't have my discipline which is why I am on the fence on this topic. I just have legitimate concerns regarding the implications of legalizing the stuff. I really haven't heard any of you come forth with any solid reasons outside of; alcohol or video games are legal, why not pot? Sorry but that's not good enough to sway me in favour.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Now granted, this is for America, but still...

A 2008 study has estimated that legalizing drugs would save taxpayers $76.8 billion a year in the United States — $44.1 billion from law enforcement savings, and at least $32.7 billion in tax revenue ($6.7 billion from marijuana $22.5 billion from cocaine and heroin, remainder from other drugs)

So to make it real simple, don't you want lower taxes?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by vektor

haha yeah, it can do that to certain people. One friend actually had an allergic reaction and puked, first and last time for him.



deaths from video game abuse:

atleast 5

deaths from marijuana:

0

but go on, tell me how World of Warcraft is not as bad as pot. And videogames can most definitely impair judgement, anything that is addictive can impair judgement. Also, pot isn't stereotyped as causing bad decisions, that's alcohol.

Heh it is true. I have struggled at times with both a WoW addiction and a herb addiction. The WoW addiction was more life changing and detrimental for a time IMO.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

So to make it real simple, don't you want lower taxes?

Who isn't for lowering taxes? I'm concerned about the ultimate cost to people's lives. I think that people that smoke pot are far to quick to brush off the side effects and consequences.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by vektor

incorrect.

Deaths caused by Alcohol poisoning in the US in one year:

80,000
http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm


Deaths caused by marijuana ever:

0

Where is there room for debate?

That is mighty naive man. You dont think someone's gotten high, done something stupid and wound up dead? No one has ever died cancer because of smoking too much marijuana? Ever?

Just because its harder to trace doesnt make it nonexistent.

Not to mention that you totally missed the entire point of my post. People can debate any topic without any basis or merit. Case in point, we're doing it right now.

[vektor]

^It's not naive, it's why I worded it exactly as I did, no one has EVER died from THC toxicity, ever. Do I have to explain it more or can you read it yourself again so I don't have to (i.e it's something like 250k from drunk driving a year and obviously someone has died while driving high). Recent research found lower rates of lung cancer in smokers than non-smokers. But I get your point, and agree. I've had pot smokers argue with me that it's fine for little kids to smoke weed, shown them peer reviewed articles about it's toxic effects and still they argue about it with me.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Look I don't want to offend the resident pot heads as it's not like I would stand in a picket line and protest legalization. Heck I would probably take advantage of it if it was legalized. However I know that I can control myself as I already steered myself from heading down that road just like I easily quit smoking cigarettes. However a lot of people don't have my discipline which is why I am on the fence on this topic. I just have legitimate concerns regarding the implications of legalizing the stuff. I really haven't heard any of you come forth with any solid reasons outside of; alcohol or video games are legal, why not pot? Sorry but that's not good enough to sway me in favour.

helps me with anxiety and depression by completely eliminating them. helps me with back pain and give me motivation. It has similar medicinal uses for many people

helps other people with glaucoma and insomnia. There are a slew of other uses but I'm not sure of the efficacy. I understand your concerns because yes, it can be abused and it can be harmful, but it does have medicinal uses that a large portion of the users actually use it for. If it only was used to get high I'd never touch it again.

The benefits far outweigh the negatives for the majority of people and just like any chemical substance that alters the body and mind it can be abused. The most promising thing is in cancer research and that marijuana can potentially stop cancer growth. If you want to argue that the potential negatives outweigh the potential positives you are free to do so, but with all my knowledge it really does not seem to be a detriment to society.

The argument that it can ruin lives by making people lose motivation or anything like that is unfair, it is hypocritical to make an argument against a non physically addictive substance based on personal allegories while things like alcohol and tobacco literally kill people all the time. You can not in all fairness argue against it's legalization while not arguing against every single habit forming mind altering substance including caffeine, tobacco and alcohol. It's like arguing red cars cause accidents and should be illegal while black, yellow and blue are fine.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Who isn't for lowering taxes? I'm concerned about the ultimate cost to people's lives. I think that people that smoke pot are far to quick to brush off the side effects and consequences.

Well as a habitual user I'm not gonna sit here and claim somehow it isn't unhealthy or somehow pot is good for you (although it is in many instances medically). The overriding point is you cannot and will not stop me from blazing. So why not tax my ass and make some money, while avoiding the waste of prosecuting and jailing me for what amounts to a victimless crime? Basically, if you know its gonna happen no matter what, why not profit of it?

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I really haven't heard any of you come forth with any solid reasons outside of; alcohol or video games are legal, why not pot? Sorry but that's not good enough to sway me in favour.

You're kidding right? I have many times on this site, including this thread, stated reasons why it should be legal.

I know it's not a suprise on which side of the fence I'm on but the big picture I don't care and mainly for the reason you stated, because it's already easy to get. So making it legal won't change that, if anything it will make more difficult, 7-11 won't deliver.

I also have a lot of friends in the 'industry' and they know more than anyone that legalization means they have no income. Some of these guys could have made ~$100,000 year with their schooling but instead make that every couple months taking care of some plants. They can't compete with what the government could easily do in terms of producing and selling marijuana.

And to be honest your 'I have two friends who smoke pot and suck at life' and 'will someone please think of the children' aren't good enough reasons to keep it illegal. There is more harm for a society to keep it illegal, like alcohol was in 20's, so why not take the benefits that can come with it to help those who will need it regardless of it being legal or illegal.

edit: Also you aren't offending me in anyway, I love this debate.

[Azure]

If we consider our country to be truly 'free', I don't see how you can argue that marijuana use should be illegal.

Yes, using drugs can be destructive. No, that does not mean the government has the right to keep us from those destructive practices.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by vektor

^It's not naive, it's why I worded it exactly as I did, no one has EVER died from THC toxicity, ever. Do I have to explain it more or can you read it yourself again so I don't have to

Theres that naivete again.

Just because you wrote it, and supported it with nothing more than the strength of the words you wrote, doesnt make it true. And to top it off you narrowed the parameters down to THC toxicity as well.

Well done.

Just as well done as you're still missing my initial point entirely which had absolutely nothing to do with marijuana or whether or not anyone has ever died from it.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by HOOT

The point is that I can get it because I've done it and know people that have it just like you can as I sense you are a habitual user. That kind of availability is not the same as having it available to purchase from any drug store or street vendor by anyone.