Healthcare in America

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Azure

Of course, there are ways to solve that problem, like user fees, but no one wants to go down that road it seems.

in the same vien, let's charge smokers more for Alberta Health Care.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Azure

That is fine and all, except I never went to a 'rural' clinic. I went to a clinic in a town with 15,000 people.

People abuse the system by going to the emergency room for every single problem, so the clinics are probably understaffed because of that. Of course, there are ways to solve that problem, like user fees, but no one wants to go down that road it seems.

Hate to break it to you, small fry, but 15 000 people is rural.

It's not the wilderness, but it sure as shiatzu ain't urban.

Then again, I understand where this 'me me me, now now now' stuff is coming from.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by joe_mullen

i'm not aware of any evidence that user fees work. if anything, one could argue that they will prevent at risk populations for accessing health care for relatively mild problems before the balloon into big problems, hence, costing the system even more. if there is evidence otherwise, i stand corrected. i truly believe that the solution to what ails our healthcare system is to improve access to all, regardless of the problem. also, in my experience, patients are awful at judging the severity of their own medical problems (another arguement against user fees).

You could easily be correct. There have just been times where I sat in a waiting room for a scheduled appointment, and I noticed how the nurses had a tough time getting scheduled patients in because of people that can in relatively minor and ridiculous problems.

Not to be racist, but living in Pincher Creek in years past, Natives abusing the clinics and emergency rooms was a HUGE problem.

The problem is like you said, it can add issues down the road.

Its just a rather complicated problem, and judging from this thread, Canadians are extremely sensitive when it comes to US/Canada healthcare comparisons. Seems like whenever we talk about possible solutions, like private diagnostic clinics, it is always met with 'we will become just like the US' arguments. Which isn't true at all.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Azure

You could easily be correct. There have just been times where I sat in a waiting room for a scheduled appointment, and I noticed how the nurses had a tough time getting scheduled patients in because of people that can in relatively minor and ridiculous problems.

Not to be racist, but living in Pincher Creek in years past, Natives abusing the clinics and emergency rooms was a HUGE problem.

The problem is like you said, it can add issues down the road.

Its just a rather complicated problem, and judging from this thread, Canadians are extremely sensitive when it comes to US/Canada healthcare comparisons. Seems like whenever we talk about possible solutions, like private diagnostic clinics, it is always met with 'we will become just like the US' arguments. Which isn't true at all.

Rationing creates shortages. A long held and generally proven econonomic principle.

When my father was going downhill, however, he shot up through waiting lists like they weren't even there. Prioritizing to urgency also happens in Canada.

The answer is that both systems could learn something from the other.

The USA Healthcare system is horribly inefficient and expensive with tremendous waste of resources compared to other countries: http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...65M0SU20100623

In Canada, waiting times would probably be lowered if we took some example from the USA and privatized part of the system, requiring physicians and specialists to spend a higher percentage - but not 100% - of their time in the public system.

On both sides of the border, we have shrill, fear-mongering partisans scaring the bejeezus out of any chance of a compromise or experimentation with different solutions.

All in all though, I'd rather be in Canada with the option to fly somewhere if I felt I should be in more of a hurry than my doctors.

Cowperson

[kirant]

I've always approach the America/Canada question on a basis of different costs:
- Canadians pay their expenses with time. You wait and wait and wait until you've paid up, then get health care for whatever you paid in taxes, as often as you like as long as you're willing to pay the waiting fee. Sometimes it becomes an issue. American politicans like to scare up a boogymen image of waiting for months for a surgery in Canada, and they're not exactly lying. That's the single biggest flaw IMO.
- Americans pay purely with cash. It's the most amazing health care in the world...should you be able to afford it. Minimal wait time ready on your call with fancy toys everywhere. My family once went down to the US and needed some health care while there. We were shocked when we were told "If you haven't seen a doctor in 15 minutes, please talk to the receptionist.". Sure enough, 5 minutes in, we go attention and were out after half an hour. At the same time, it was extremely expensive for a one time visit. I could see how a lot of lower earning Americans could go without health care. Not to mention study after study shows that it's the most inefficient health care per dollar.

I'm not sure either system is great. I prefer Canada's. Without a doubt in my mind. Both have large issues though. Azure's friend is a great example of that. I've always wondered about two-tier health care, but it sounds like there are large issues of that too (especially from the medical professionals I've talked to and attracting public side doctors).

[Bill Bumface]

I was in Utah last week and asked a guy why so many Americans were opposed to health care reform. His response?

"There are a lot of stupid people in this country".

[HELPNEEDED]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

I was in Utah last week and asked a guy why so many Americans were opposed to health care reform. His response?

"There are a lot of stupid people in this country".

And thats exactly it.

Health care is a basic human right.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Azure

I did go to a walk-in clinic. But like I said before, emergency room abuse where I live is pretty significant, so there is an obvious severe lack of resources available.

My whole point is exactly what you said. Better access to primary care so people who just need stitches are not a burden at all to the emergency services. Are nurses even allowed to put in stitches? Seems to me having to wait for one of the 5 doctors in the hospital for stitches, is rather inefficient, when one of the 20 nurses could help me instead.

Amen. Nurses could be trained. Good luck convincing the AMA to let the government allow it

[joe_mullen]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Amen. Nurses could be trained. Good luck convincing the AMA to let the government allow it

LPNs or RNs? most clinics don't have RNs to do that sort of work. furthermore, most times, suturing up a wound requires (or should require) a complete neurological and vascular examination of the affected limb. would nurses have the appropriate training for that? (they very well could since i'm not aware of the specifics of nursing training) furthermore, would they be willing to take on the liability (and associated cost) of complications? the answers aren't always that simple. nurse practitioners on the other hand are very well trained to perform such procedures. i'd also be curious if nurses perform such procedures in better health care systems than ours (ie. france, norway, etc.), since that's where we should be taking our lead from.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by valo403

Your US insurance covers 100% of an MRI? That's a nice plan.

Actually the combo of the insurance plan from my work and my wifes work all costs were covered.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Azure

No, its beyond frustrating when you're the only person in the waiting room for 6 hours waiting for a procedure that a nurse could easily do in 5 min. Because that is all it took.

6 stitches? Get yourself a Care Bear's band-aid and be done with it. I went to the hospital with a heart problem once, walked in under my own power. The place was packed. They tried to take my pulse and had troubles finding it. My butt didn't even touch an emergency room chair. This happened twice, both times I was seeing a doctor in less than 5 minutes. When it takes a few hours to get a cast for a broken bone remember this fact and you won't get as bent out of shape about it.

6 stitches? Yeah. You can wait. It will probably already be healed by the time they see you.

[burn_this_city]

Part of the problem is too many people show up in the ER with trivial issues that should be taken care of by a small clinic. My mom was a triage nurse at the South Calgary Health Center and she had tons of people show up with the sniffles or a sore throat. As far as I'm concerned, those people should be forced to wait a long time. I had a concussion a couple years back and got in within 5 minutes.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

The answer is that both systems could learn something from the other.

Not that I disagree with your post, but both systems should learn from the 20 or 30 other systems that are better instead.

The US-CAN health care debate is like flames and oiler fans arguing over who sucks more after neither makes the playoffs.

Its ridiculous that Americans allow millions to be bankrupted over basic health care. It's almost as ridiculous that Canadians think health care success is everyone suffering equally.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Part of the problem is too many people show up in the ER with trivial issues that should be taken care of by a small clinic. My mom was a triage nurse at the South Calgary Health Center and she had tons of people show up with the sniffles or a sore throat. As far as I'm concerned, those people should be forced to wait a long time. I had a concussion a couple years back and got in within 5 minutes.

The South Calgary Health Center has a walk-in clinic. That's where you go if you have things like bronchitis or pneumonia or strep throat, and don't have a family doctor. Of course tons of people with sniffles and sore throats are going to show up. It's not like it's an ER or anything and you are preventing someone with life threatening wounds from getting proper care.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Knalus

The South Calgary Health Center has a walk-in clinic. That's where you go if you have things like bronchitis or pneumonia or strep throat, and don't have a family doctor. Of course tons of people with sniffles and sore throats are going to show up. It's not like it's an ER or anything and you are preventing someone with life threatening wounds from getting proper care.

Theres a walk in clinic across the street in the professional building across from Fluor.

[afc wimbledon]

There isn't an answer to the problems of health care without some significant altering of the basic model, we don't need to train and pay a doctor to tell us we have a bad cold or strep throat, there should be some basic level of diagnostic care pre doctor for about half the price, nurse practioner kind of thing. Create a 5 nurse clinic with a doctor or two supervising/consulting them for when they arn't sure.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

6 stitches? Get yourself a Care Bear's band-aid and be done with it. I went to the hospital with a heart problem once, walked in under my own power. The place was packed. They tried to take my pulse and had troubles finding it. My butt didn't even touch an emergency room chair. This happened twice, both times I was seeing a doctor in less than 5 minutes. When it takes a few hours to get a cast for a broken bone remember this fact and you won't get as bent out of shape about it.

6 stitches? Yeah. You can wait. It will probably already be healed by the time they see you.

I honestly hate going to get help for something which seemed so minor, but the cut was in such a place that a bandaid couldn't keep the cut closed long enough for it to heal properly.

It wasn't a serious problem at all, which is why I think a nurse with a certain level of training should have been able to deal with it. Alas I had to wait for one of the 5 doctors there. And that part is what I hate, because I know those doctors need to help other more seriously 'injured' patients instead of wasting their time on me.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Part of the problem is too many people show up in the ER with trivial issues that should be taken care of by a small clinic. My mom was a triage nurse at the South Calgary Health Center and she had tons of people show up with the sniffles or a sore throat. As far as I'm concerned, those people should be forced to wait a long time. I had a concussion a couple years back and got in within 5 minutes.

This has been something a lot of high school friends that went on to be RNs said as well. Extreme abuse of emergency resources for minor problems, and no way for the emergency personnel to deal with it.

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

Its ridiculous that Americans allow millions to be bankrupted over basic health care. It's almost as ridiculous that Canadians think health care success is everyone suffering equally.

Yep. Pretty much sums it up perfectly. I think most Canadians would be reasonable about our problems, and what it takes to solve them, but there are something that go bat**** crazy when you say that its ridiculous that one should have to wait hours for nothing.

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

There isn't an answer to the problems of health care without some significant altering of the basic model, we don't need to train and pay a doctor to tell us we have a bad cold or strep throat, there should be some basic level of diagnostic care pre doctor for about half the price, nurse practioner kind of thing. Create a 5 nurse clinic with a doctor or two supervising/consulting them for when they arn't sure.

How many high school graduates go to nursing school? From my class alone a very large percentage of the kids went on to become RN or work in the healthcare field. Seems to be that the training could be altered in such a way those 'nurses' could be trained to help take pressure off the doctors, and they don't need 7 years of schooling either.

[FlameOn]

Yikes! US private healthcare and greed, inefficiency in the system really does have a huge impact even on the basic costs of procedures, not just the number of unnecessary procedures performed. Didn't realize the effect would be so pronounced. Check out the price of an angiogram. On average in the US it costs $800 vs $35 in Canada... WTF? How can American politicians and public for that matter continue to justify such an expensive and ineffective health care system with numbers like this?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...res-in-the-us/

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Yikes! US private healthcare and greed, inefficiency in the system really does have a huge impact even on the basic costs of procedures, not just the number of unnecessary procedures performed. Didn't realize the effect would be so pronounced. Check out the price of an angiogram. On average in the US it costs $800 vs $35 in Canada... WTF? How can American politicians and public for that matter continue to justify such an expensive and ineffective health care system with numbers like this?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...res-in-the-us/

How exactly is the American public justifying it?