Is the Reserve System for Native Peoples Broken?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The way of life you are talking about died centuries ago. A community could follow the Hutterite example, buy up large tracts of land and live off an agrarian based economy.

But the nomadic practices of many native tribes is impractical in the modern era. Nor will you ever see anyone running down a buffalo on horseback with a bow or a gun any more.

Pretending that things can ever go back to something resembling the way they were before "we" showed up is of no use or benefit.

Noone is suggesting that aboriginals be allowed to roam onto every piece of land they'd like. In this case we are talking about giving back a relatively small patch of land as it will help their society as a whole.

Perhaps we should spend the next 400 years raping, murdering, and poisoning the hudderites and see if it affects their ability to function as a society and buy land the old fashioned way.

[Clarkey]

There are only 2 ways that the situation will change:

1) the supreme court changes interpretations
2) individual bands vote to relinquish their treaty status in exchange for full title of their reserve land (and compensation)

#2 has happened but most bands do not want to vote to give up all the status benefits so they choose not to, it's a catch 22.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by blankall

Noone is suggesting that aboriginals be allowed to roam onto every piece of land they'd like. In this case we are talking about giving back a relatively small patch of land as it will help their society as a whole.

Perhaps we should spend the next 400 years raping, murdering, and poisoning the hudderites and see if it affects their ability to function as a society and buy land the old fashioned way.

Holy drama, Batman! And it's Hutterites.

Back in the day, they used horses and plows. Now they use tractors. Yet somehow they keep their cultural heritage, likely because their cultural heritage does not restrict them from being productive.

How about the Chinese? Historically, they were used and abused as second-class citizens. How did they ever become productive and maintain their cultural heritage? Even Japanese post-war were discriminated against, yet they rose to the challenge.

We have not empowered natives; we've disempowered them. There is a culture of reliance on gov't largesse provisioned via their rich chief overlords lurking behind all the cool drum beats and hoop dances and peace pipes. Giving them more land does nothing...zippo...nada. If the gov't builds their houses and provides the cheques, do you think that having more acres for hunting and fishing will make a hill-of-beans difference? Not on your life. "Do more of the same" is not the answer.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by zuluking

Holy drama, Batman! And it's Hutterites.

Back in the day, they used horses and plows. Now they use tractors. Yet somehow they keep their cultural heritage, likely because their cultural heritage does not restrict them from being productive.

How about the Chinese? Historically, they were used and abused as second-class citizens. How did they ever become productive and maintain their cultural heritage? Even Japanese post-war were discriminated against, yet they rose to the challenge.

We have not empowered natives; we've disempowered them. There is a culture of reliance on gov't largesse provisioned via their rich chief overlords lurking behind all the cool drum beats and hoop dances and peace pipes. Giving them more land does nothing...zippo...nada. If the gov't builds their houses and provides the cheques, do you think that having more acres for hunting and fishing will make a hill-of-beans difference? Not on your life. "Do more of the same" is not the answer.

I'm not saying there aren't problems with the current system. However, doing away with the reserve system as a whole is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by blankall

Are you honestly going to tell me the world has nothing to gain by allowing aboriginal people to preserve a portion of their way of life.

They can preserve their way of life all they want. They just shouldn't get special status and government handouts.

Hutterites have preserved their way of life too, without the handouts and free welfare checks.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by blankall

I'm not saying there aren't problems with the current system. However, doing away with the reserve system as a whole is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Can you list the top ten redeeming qualities of the reserve system?

[SeeBass]

The Souix beat up, killed, raped and stole land from the Ojibiwa before the white man came.

I still haven't seen that handing back ceremony.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

The Souix beat up, killed, raped and stole land from the Ojibiwa before the white man came.

I still haven't seen that handing back ceremony.

And if you go further, Native tribes were in a constant state of war against each other.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Azure

They can preserve their way of life all they want. They just shouldn't get special status and government handouts.

Hutterites have preserved their way of life too, without the handouts and free welfare checks.

Once again, the Hutterites have a history that is totally different from that of the aboringal peoples of Canada.

These aren't handouts....we've taken so much from them, we are merely giving a very very tiny fraction back.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by blankall

Once again, the Hutterites have a history that is totally different from that of the aboringal peoples of Canada.

These aren't handouts....we've taken so much from them, we are merely giving a very very tiny fraction back.

Hey, check your history. Guess who else had nearly everything taken from them - including their originating continent?

Hutterites.

[Tinordi]

Comparing aboriginal people to Hutterites is totally illogical. First point, hutterites could actually buy land. "Indians" couldn't without approval from the Indian agent.

Seriously, there's so much ignorance about the history of how we got here that you might as well just shut this thread down. There's no actual discussion on what to do because almost everyone has no idea what's happened.

An excellent place to start is here:

http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100014597

Probably the most comprehensive history of First Nations peoples, what went wrong and where to go. But far be it from me for anyone to actually learn about the issue.

[CaramonLS]

Link

Here are some facts about aboriginal youth demographics.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Comparing aboriginal people to Hutterites is totally illogical. First point, hutterites could actually buy land. "Indians" couldn't without approval from the Indian agent.

Seriously, there's so much ignorance about the history of how we got here that you might as well just shut this thread down. There's no actual discussion on what to do because almost everyone has no idea what's happened.

An excellent place to start is here:

http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100014597

Probably the most comprehensive history of First Nations peoples, what went wrong and where to go. But far be it from me for anyone to actually learn about the issue.

Good post. People love to call for an even playing field now, but fail to recognize how stacked the odds were 150 years ago and how that's the source of all these problems. At a time when they were giving hundreds of acres of land to any warm body (as long as they were white) who could pay a nominal pre-emption fee, a First Nations person couldn't buy a scrap of land even if they had the money. Trying to compare them to immigrants who had the money and legal opportunity to acquire land for a pittance is asinine.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Comparing aboriginal people to Hutterites is totally illogical. First point, hutterites could actually buy land. "Indians" couldn't without approval from the Indian agent.

Seriously, there's so much ignorance about the history of how we got here that you might as well just shut this thread down. There's no actual discussion on what to do because almost everyone has no idea what's happened.

An excellent place to start is here:

http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100014597

Probably the most comprehensive history of First Nations peoples, what went wrong and where to go. But far be it from me for anyone to actually learn about the issue.

The thing is, the easiest way to try to come up with solutions is to compare and contrast. You can compare anything to anything else, the important thing is what kind of conclusions you get. There are few groups that you can compare Natives too, especially from a Canadian perspective. So here's an attempt.
Hutterites and Natives have unique, and different cultures from other Canadians. Hutterites and Natives both have experienced severe persecution in the past, and have had nearly everything taken from them. Both groups have lived in Canada in similar geographical areas with similar neighbours for 125 years. Hutterites can be compared with Mennonites, Amish, Doukhobors, and other various groups of similar background, just as Natives have many differing cultures.

However, they are also very different, and it is the differences that give you the greatest insight. The biggest difference is how the Canadian Government has treated each group. Originally, the Canadian government treated the Natives incredibly poorly, while the Hutterites were treated with grudging acceptance. Over time, the Canadian government's treatment of each group changed significantly, with the greatest changes being to the Native population. Which changes were the most positive? Which resulted in the greatest negative effects? How were these other groups treated differently, and how might those differences be used to change policy for the better?

We all know how badly the Canadian government treated Natives, that isn't being disputed. What we are trying to do is figure out a better way of treating them than the current method.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Azure

The Hutterites don't get special status from the government outside of a different way to pay taxes, and some different privileges in terms of education. Mostly because of the fact that they live in a community.

The land they own was bought and paid for, and they don't get free hand outs from the government.

Yet, they have still kept their culture and way of life for over 100 years now in North America.

I'd bet that their original land in the USA was given to them for a token amount and probably in Canada as well. As has been said it was much better land then the Natives got as well.

An interesting fact pertaining to the political thread but in Alberta the Hutterites didn't have to get picture ID for their drivers licences, maybe we should take away their right to vote.

You don't seem to have any understanding of the historical prejudices the natives have faced. I read of one native who after returning from the war, bought a home in the city for his family. The Indian agent took it away and gave it to a white man.

Hutterites also have control over their education which has helped them to preserve their language and culture while natives have faced a government sponsored agenda to destroy their language and culture. It's only recently that the natives are getting educated and are beginning to use their rights. It will take a while for them to improve their lives. Because you have experience with one reserve doesn't mean all reserves are like the one you know.

[afc wimbledon]

I think the most important difference between hutterites and natives over their respective history is that hutterites were european, looked and acted european, were well versed in european farming techniques and well educated. As such they really weren't any different a hundred years ago from every other european immigrant.

Natives on the other hand were totally unused to large scale farming, so land ownership was essentially useless to them, they were visibally different looking and, a hundred years ago, reeling from a serious of epidemics that had wiped out 50% of their population and left the surviving communities shattered and disfunctional.
As such 'we' first developed our views of natives by our interaction with a decimated population that was in shock.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by Azure

And if you go further, Native tribes were in a constant state of war against each other.

Exactly my point, the natives were doing this long before the white man came and kicked their butts. The Souix, were no better.

It is just another long line of one advanced society beating another.

It sucks that this happened to people but as a person of native mix I am no more mad at what people did to other people before I was born than my wife of Jewish heritage is mad at Germans.

Nobody should pay or feel quilty due to the sins of their father.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by Azure

They can preserve their way of life all they want. They just shouldn't get special status and government handouts.

Hutterites have preserved their way of life too, without the handouts and free welfare checks.

They are not eligible for a war time draft either.

[Nuje]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

Exactly my point, the natives were doing this long before the white man came and kicked their butts. The Souix, were no better.

It is just another long line of one advanced society beating another.

It sucks that this happened to people but as a person of native mix I am no more mad at what people did to other people before I was born than my wife of Jewish heritage is mad at Germans.

Nobody should pay or feel quilty due to the sins of their father.

Yep. As someone who holds Polish citizenship, I harbour no ill feelings towards Germans or Russians, but they both did the people of our country a lot of harm (and much more recently than what happened here I might add, my grandmother who's only been gone almost 2 years was around for the majority of it all!). I don't believe I deserve any additional benefits for that, because:
A. It happens, and
B. It was a long time ago, and those people don't want to invade and fight wars anymore.

By constantly laying blame and reminding them of the atrocities, you're only breeding more hate.

On the reserve system, yeah, abolish it. Have the government state that it's broken, the band leaders tend to live lavishly with the rest suffering, and institute a program with a set timeline to integrate and take away the rights. Find the corrupt band leaders, and arrest them. If the reserve ownership is split amongst the band members, give them all land (the reserve land, or equivalent) and be DONE with it. Does any other country in the world do this?

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Nuje

Does any other country in the world do this?

No. Generally when you are a 'conquered' people, you are happy to not be wiped out. It's pretty rare that losers in a fight are given much thought, much less 'rights' or 'status'.