Brodie Discussion

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The goal is not about making your scouts look good.

Maybe Brodie and Negrin can develop enough so that next time a Carson or Mikklesen is on the waiver wire the Flames will look and say no thanks .... Brodie is better.

My issue in this regard, is that it shouldn't be about who is better during camp, it should be about what is best for development. They are completely different, and I think that using a blank slate and choosing the player who is better right now is the wrong approach.

You can find 28 year old defencemen who have lots of NHL experience on the waiver wire all the time. Guys who can fill a 3rd pairing role, and have an advantage in experience and maturity over a 20 year old prospect. Yes, the 28 year old will definitely be better this season. But he's going nowhere. Or Steve Staios.

Do that a few years in a row, and you'll end up with a prospect who's 24 or 25, and still in the AHL. He could have spent the last 4 years practicing and playing against the best in the world, but instead spent his best developmental years on the bus between Peoria and Hershey.

My point is that a guy who has a higher ceiling should get the priority, not the guy who is a little bit better today. You don't want to rush your prospects, and by all means bring in journeyman fringe guys if your prospect isn;t ready to fill the hole in your roster. But hockey players get better by playing at a level that is slightly over their heads. Your prospects won't develop to their potential if they spend their best developmental years in the AHL.

The price to pay for developing the best players possible, is sometimes icing depth (read: not important) players who are not the absolute best possible every year.

We are not going to miss the playoffs because our 6th d-man was the 8th best guy in camp. But we might miss the playoffs down the road if we don't develop our future talent properly.

For those who are slow on the uptake, I am suggesting the TJ Brodie should get preferential consideration for the 6th (or MAYBE 7th) spot. Because I think he has a higher ceiling than some others competing for those spots.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The overall goal for the GM is to make the team as good as possible within the salary cap.

If you can get a better value defensemen for the same or less salary than the guys you drafted you have to go with them.

The goal is not about making your scouts look good.

Our drafted prospects got closer to the NHL when Aulie and Wilson were traded away badically as throw ins and Pelech kept getting injured and then got moved back down when Carson, Mikklesen, Smith, Wilson and Henry got signed basically for nothing.

Maybe Brodie and Negrin can develop enough so that next time a Carson or Mikklesen is on the waiver wire the Flames will look and say no thanks .... Brodie is better.

I don't agree with you about Aulie and Wilson. As far as I know Wilson and Aulie were never at the top of our defence prospect list, so them moving on to the another team and surprisingly getting promoted to the NHL, didn't do our other prospects much good. In fact these two players are a good example of why our prospects are frustrated.

As for Carson and Mikklesen, the big thing in their favour was that they had NHL experience and our prospects, except for a couple of games when injuries took a catastrophic turn, didn't. Talk about a Catch 22 for our boys down on the farm.

As for making our scouts look good, Aulie and Wilson show they aren't too bad and it isn't about that anyways, it's about developing players who will excel and probably be cheaper than expensive vets. I also think it's great for team building to have your own players develop in the system, mercenaries can only take you so far.

A long shot I know, but a small part of me hopes Pelech makes the Sharks, just to show how wrong our player promotion system is. Jim Vandermeer's spot looks like a possibility.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

My issue in this regard, is that it shouldn't be about who is better during camp, it should be about what is best for development. They are completely different, and I think that using a blank slate and choosing the player who is better right now is the wrong approach.

You can find 28 year old defencemen who have lots of NHL experience on the waiver wire all the time. Guys who can fill a 3rd pairing role, and have an advantage in experience and maturity over a 20 year old prospect. Yes, the 28 year old will definitely be better this season. But he's going nowhere. Or Steve Staios.

Do that a few years in a row, and you'll end up with a prospect who's 24 or 25, and still in the AHL. He could have spent the last 4 years practicing and playing against the best in the world, but instead spent his best developmental years on the bus between Peoria and Hershey.

My point is that a guy who has a higher ceiling should get the priority, not the guy who is a little bit better today. You don't want to rush your prospects, and by all means bring in journeyman fringe guys if your prospect isn;t ready to fill the hole in your roster. But hockey players get better by playing at a level that is slightly over their heads. Your prospects won't develop to their potential if they spend their best developmental years in the AHL.

The price to pay for developing the best players possible, is sometimes icing depth (read: not important) players who are not the absolute best possible every year.

We are not going to miss the playoffs because our 6th d-man was the 8th best guy in camp. But we might miss the playoffs down the road if we don't develop our future talent properly.

For those who are slow on the uptake, I am suggesting the TJ Brodie should get preferential consideration for the 6th (or MAYBE 7th) spot. Because I think he has a higher ceiling than some others competing for those spots.

and what is the use of development when by the time Brodie gets developed he is a RFA and a couple of years later a UFA.

the time and money spent developing and nurturing someone does not greatly benefit the organization.


The Flames have brought Irving along giving him all the situations that he needs to suceed..... not dropping him into the NHL before he is ready and blows up.... The net result is that if he does become a legitimate NHL goaltender he will be playing for the highest bidder. 1 chance in 30 it will be the Flames.


The benefit of youth and draft picks to an organization is getting a young stud ... Toews, Kane, Phanuef, Doughty, Stamkos... who gives you the 3 years on their EL contract of great value for a fixed low price.

After 3 years you have to start paying them full market value to avoid losing them for nothing as a UFA.

Negrin is in the last year of his EL contract.... should the Flames sign him to a contact extension for 5 years at 1M/year just in case their development efforts pay off?

Mikkleson, Carson, Wilson and Smith were developed elsewhere and the Flames are cashing in on some other organization's work and $.

The Flames developed Pardy and gave him the skills and experience to have a NHL career. Without the support and guidance form the Flame's Pardy is not making 2M /year. Very little return for the Flames to look after Pardy for 3 years in the AHL.

[David Struch]

Developing Nystrom just to see him leave as an UFA would be another example.

[ricardodw]

Need to take the Backlund approach.

NHL ready or not. The Flames might get 1 cheap year out of him this year as an EL and then 2 years at 1.5-2.0 (like Alzner) and then another 2 at 2.5 (Wheeler,Purcell) if Backlund actual gets 25 goals 2 years from now the Flames would be looking at 4.2M like Dubinsky, Callahan.....

all in all there is basically 5 years left for Backlund to be a Flame unless they deide he is Phanuef and give him 6.5 for 5 or 6 years.

Backlund is okay but Irving has 2-3 , Negrin has the same 5 as backlund .

The current RFA rules are very much against devloping young players.


Drafting 18 year olds instead of 20 years olds and very short EL contract makes it near impossible to build with draft choices that are not ready as 19 year olds (when they get kicked out of juniors) to be in the NHL



Feaster has figured this out..... there is as good of a chance out of getting 5 years out of Carson, Mikklesen, Smith , Wilson and Henry as there is out of Brodie. Other teams have given up waiting for these guys... who are still younger than anyone on the Flames roster who will be UFAs in a year or two.

Already Edmonton is starting to feel the crunch of the short RFA/UFA period.

It is not like they will be able to keep their young high draft picks together for 5 years. Already Cogliano has cycled through and is getting overpaid by anahiem. Gagner is RFA next year. If Hall scores 20 goals this year and 30 the next the Oilers will be looking at paying him 6.5 over 5 years or more ... like Stamkos and Doughty.

as absurd as it sounds the time frame for Edmonton winning it all on the backs of cheap EL contracts (like Chicago) ends next season.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by David Struch

Developing Nystrom just to see him leave as an UFA would be another example.

Developing Nystrom to see that he didn't develop into anything much and letting him leave via FA is a better example.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Developing Nystrom to see that he didn't develop into anything much and letting him leave via FA is a better example.

And developing Pardy into a borderline NHL D, then letting Joe get into a 1 man bidding war over him is another.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by kirant

And developing Pardy into a borderline NHL D, then letting Joe get into a 1 man bidding war over him is another.

Methinks Joey N. didn't really watch Pardy's play very much. He just looked at games and minutes played and was convinced he was a steady NHLer. We just had to play Pardy so much because we had no choice.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Need to take the Backlund approach.

NHL ready or not. The Flames might get 1 cheap year out of him this year as an EL and then 2 years at 1.5-2.0 (like Alzner) and then another 2 at 2.5 (Wheeler,Purcell) if Backlund actual gets 25 goals 2 years from now the Flames would be looking at 4.2M like Dubinsky, Callahan.....

all in all there is basically 5 years left for Backlund to be a Flame unless they deide he is Phanuef and give him 6.5 for 5 or 6 years.

Backlund is okay but Irving has 2-3 , Negrin has the same 5 as backlund .

The current RFA rules are very much against devloping young players.


Drafting 18 year olds instead of 20 years olds and very short EL contract makes it near impossible to build with draft choices that are not ready as 19 year olds (when they get kicked out of juniors) to be in the NHL



Feaster has figured this out..... there is as good of a chance out of getting 5 years out of Carson, Mikklesen, Smith , Wilson and Henry as there is out of Brodie. Other teams have given up waiting for these guys... who are still younger than anyone on the Flames roster who will be UFAs in a year or two.

Already Edmonton is starting to feel the crunch of the short RFA/UFA period.

It is not like they will be able to keep their young high draft picks together for 5 years. Already Cogliano has cycled through and is getting overpaid by anahiem. Gagner is RFA next year. If Hall scores 20 goals this year and 30 the next the Oilers will be looking at paying him 6.5 over 5 years or more ... like Stamkos and Doughty.

as absurd as it sounds the time frame for Edmonton winning it all on the backs of cheap EL contracts (like Chicago) ends next season.

I think Edmonton has longer than you let on. However, I agree with the rest. This is also why I think blowing the team up would be a disaster.

[Southern_Canuck]

This season I took notice of Brodie, and he seems like an up and coming NHL ready offensive defenceman. I have a question for those that have watched TJ Brodie a little more closely...

He was the 5th player selected by Calgary in 2008 - 114th overall... and the second player selected by Calgary from the OHL that year - would the same scout that recommended Nemisz (Windsor) be the scout that recommended Brodie? Why wasn't he drafted higher?

Brodie was the 11th defenceman selected from the OHL, and the 45th defenceman selected overall... (althouth he has played the 13th most games amongst them)!

OHL defencemen selected before Brodie:
2. Drew Doughty
3. Zach Bogosian
4. Alex Pietrangelo
20. Michael del Zotto
23. Tyler Cuma
50. Cameron Gaunce
68. Shawn Lalonde
74. Andrew Campbell
80. Adam Comrie (Saginaw)
105. Michal Jordan
114. TJ Brodie (Saginaw)

It seems to me that Brodie has a much better chance of panning out than many of the players selected ahead of him --- I know that players develop at different rates, but is Saginaw acknowledged as a premium development program? Or did Brodie train with a development coach like Gary Roberts?

Just curious...

S_C

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Brodie would have made the team before they signed Babchuk, Smith, Wilson and Henry

Brodies's body of work justifying a spot on an NHL roster was 3 exhibition games.

Robbie Schremp had more far better exhibition games than Brodie.

If Brodie was NHL ready he would have dominated the AHL like almost NHL star Ander Erikkson did in his AHL season 45 pts in 64 games.

Brodie 34 pts in 68 games does not show he is anywhere close to stepping in and being a succesful puck moving PP d-man at the NHL level.

Carson and Mikkleson have put up better numbers at the AHL level in their very limited time there. If either one of them somehow ends up with the Heat they would be expected to put up more than 34 points in a complete season.


With the addition of the 4 new offensive d-men to the Flames Organization he has dropped on the organizational depth chart from 4th behind Bouwmesster, Gio, white/Babchuck to 7th or 8th behind Butler, Smith, Wilson and Henry and maybe Carson.

Brodie needs to figure out that a 40-50 pt season as a top 2 d-man for the Heat is what he needs to get a real look in the NHL.

Well don't you sound stupid now looking back.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Mitch

Well don't you sound stupid now looking back.

looking back?

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by flameswin

looking back?

[GreenLantern2814]

This Is driving me fricking insane. Negrin and Mikkelson are not flames property anymore. Stop talking like they are

[getbak]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

This Is driving me fricking insane. Negrin and Mikkelson are not flames property anymore. Stop talking like they are

Only the last four posts in the thread prior to yours aren't from last summer.

[Southern_Canuck]

Originally Posted by getbak

Only the last four posts in the thread prior to yours aren't from last summer.

Oooops, just thought I should ask my questions (post #70) in an existing thread - didn't mean to frighten and confuse...



S_C

[OzSome]

Great. I guess we finally got tired of all the talk about ``Trade JayBo`` thing so we have to start picking someone else. Brodie you are next in line.

[Vulcan]

I think the main knock on Brodie in his draft year was he's skinny and his rep as only an offensive player. He's worked on his defensive game but he's still only listed at 182#.

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I think the main knock on Brodie in his draft year was he's skinny and his rep as only an offensive player. He's worked on his defensive game but he's still only listed at 182#.

Agreed.

Sort of like a Gaudreau type situation, his biggest downfall was weight and size.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Mitch

Agreed.

Sort of like a Gaudreau type situation, his biggest downfall was weight and size.

Yeah, it would be great if he can put on 10 pounds of muscle, still he isn't like Boyd and being constantly knocked off his feet. He has a good centre of balance and doesn't seem to shy away from battling in the corners.