5 yr old w/ gun incident at Houston school

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by TylerSVT

I agree with rights to own guns... handguns to me are another issue because of what they represent (your intent to hide the fact that you are armed). If this was a shotgun i imagine the kid wouldnt be putting it in his backpack.

Gun Crazy americans drive me mental, its not difficult to pull out a gun and shoot someone when you have adrenaline pumping... id rather that privilege be given to those who are trained to handle it (see police)

The fact is, the police simply cannot show up to the scene of the crime fast enough, and that's not me trashing cops, ..it's just reality.

Alot of handgun owners in the U.S. are professional women in large cities who tuck them in their purse when riding public transit at night.

I think this is better than women walking around the city with a Remington 12-gauge strapped over their shoulder, don't you?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by PIMking

I don't have any children and I carry my pistol on me. The fiance keeps the shotgun under her side of the bed and a pistol in a lock box in her night stand. I work all kinds of late hours and she is trained to use the weapon and shoot for centre mass.

First of all, a shotgun under the bed, regardless of having children in the house, is not anywhere near what I would call responsible storage of a firearm. A lock box is better, but again, not anywhere near what I would consider ideal. For the record I have several long guns, and a pistol in my house. The long guns are in a 400 lb safe with trigger locks, and when possible bolts removed, and in a seperate locked compartment of the safe. The pistol is in in a lock box, with a trigger lock, in that same safe.

Are those guns going to be any good to me in a home invasion in their current state? Aboslutely not, but they certainly aren't going to be stolen any time soon, and they won't be used for anything I don't intend them to be used for. The fact that my guns are stored safely is much more peace of mind for me, than the potential that they could help me in the INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY event that an armed assailant would break into my house while I was home.

As for your situation, that sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Sounds to me like you've set yourself up to get shot accidentially by your fiance.
What's to say she isn't tired, drunk, or groggy when you come home at some strange hour, and she mistakes you for an intruder, and you get shot?

Is that a likely scenario? Probably not, but what is the likely hood of anyone actually needing to use those guns you have in your bedroom for home protection? Well I'd say judging by statics of accidents involving improperly stored firearms, vs home invasions, that the former is much more likely than the later.

That's the problem I have with people who insist on having a gun on hand for self defence. They're protecting against an incredibly minute risk, by introducing a much larger one.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by habernac

replace "sole" with "primary" then.

Why do police officers carry guns? Is it to kill someone? No. How about legal gun owners? Do they legally purchase guns to kill someone? No. They purchase guns for self defense, target practice, hunting, etc. Let's try and introduce some logic into this discussion rather than allowing our emotions take over, shall we?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by puckluck

That's like saying the primary use of a condom is to blow them into balloons.

No it isnt.

I have been shooting with buddies down here a few times, and not once did I aim the gun at a person or any living thing for that matter...and niether did the guys I was with.

I don't own a gun as i haven't that desire, but the VAST majority that do are extremely responsible with them.

[Beerfest]

Originally Posted by puckluck

That's like saying the primary use of a condom is to blow them into balloons.

How?

Im sure most people who legally own guns in the US didnt purchase it to kill someone.

Just like im sure most people who purchase condoms dont plan to blow them into balloons.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

The fact is, the police simply cannot show up to the scene of the crime fast enough, and that's not me trashing cops, ..it's just reality.

Alot of handgun owners in the U.S. are professional women in large cities who tuck them in their purse when riding public transit at night.

I think this is better than women walking around the city with a Remington 12-gauge strapped over their shoulder, don't you?

I think women, or anyone who's concerned enough with being attacked that they carry a weapon, walking around with handguns is dangerous and ultimately ineffective.

What are the chances your average professional woman will be able or willing to shoot someone when under stress? The chances of hitting a target aren't great to begin with, and that's assuming she can bring herself to actually pull the trigger.

Non lethal solutions like bear spray are IMO a much better option for several resons.

1) It's much more likely anyone would be willing to use it against an attacker as they don't have to think that they might kill someone
2) It's much more likely to be effective, as it's a lot easier to hit someone with a stream of liquid than a small bullet
3) It can't be used fatally against the woman who has it. Sure it won't be pleaseant if her attacker gets a hold of it, but the consequences are nothing compared to having her own gun turned on her
4) It's not potentially lethal against innocent bystanders

My mom spends a lot of time alone at my folks cabin. My dad is pretty pro gun, and when my folks decided my mom should have some way to defend herself when she's out there alone, they sure as hell didn't decide it would be a good idea to have a gun lying around the house, as as soon as it becomes useful for her to protect herself, it introduces a whole new danger to the rest of the household.

[TylerSVT]

"Self defense" is just sugar coating the fact that its bought to kill someone, if you buy it for self defense you are buying it to kill someone in the chance that you get attacked, mobbed, etc.

Its just a faster way of doing it that is safer for the one handling the gun.

I store mine in a locked room (dont own any restricted firearms) with the actions removed or locked. Ammo is locked in another room. Pretty useless for self defense.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

First of all, a shotgun under the bed, regardless of having children in the house, is not anywhere near what I would call responsible storage of a firearm. A lock box is better, but again, not anywhere near what I would consider ideal. For the record I have several long guns, and a pistol in my house. The long guns are in a 400 lb safe with trigger locks, and when possible bolts removed, and in a seperate locked compartment of the safe. The pistol is in in a lock box, with a trigger lock, in that same safe.

Are those guns going to be any good to me in a home invasion in their current state? Aboslutely not, but they certainly aren't going to be stolen any time soon, and they won't be used for anything I don't intend them to be used for.

As for your situation, that sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Sounds to me like you've set yourself up to get shot accidentially by your fiance.
What's to say she isn't tired, drunk, or groggy when you come home at some strange hour, and she mistakes you for an intruder, and you get shot?

Is that a likely scenario? Probably not, but what is the likely hood of anyone actually needing to use those guns you have in your bedroom for home protection? Well I'd say judging by statics of accidents involving improperly stored firearms, vs home invasions, that the former is much more likely than the later.

That's the problem I have with people who insist on having a gun on hand for self defence. They're protecting against an incredibly minute risk, by introducing a much larger one.

Man I'm going to come out positively liberal on this one.

But, I'm sure that most people know that I was expertly trained on the use of firearms. Pistols, long rifles, assault rifles, sub machine guns. And I marked very high on each one of them (Ok thats a lie, I didn't do well with pistols, but its not like we got issued pistols in the field)

I always like to debate the firearms for defense thing based on one thing and thats awareness. A lot of people who buy firearms for self defense, are just people, my dad had a small pistol in the house when I was growing up for defense and I had certain fears about that.

1) The person thats attacking you has made his decision, if you confront him with a firearm the range of engagement is going to be small, especially in a house or apartment. Chances are 50/50 that while your deciding to shoot him, and getting by your self doubt, he's going to get that fire arm from you, and he's going to kill you.

2) You hear a noise in your house, its dark, you grab your handy pistol, sneak around the corner of the staircase in the dark and get startled by near movement, so you fire a shot, killing a family member because when the adrenaline is pumping, most people don't check target, they have their finger in the trigger guard and your first reaction when you crap your pants is to squeeze the trigger.

3) You hear a noise in your house, you pull out your shiny new desert eagle (silver plated of course) you go to investigate, you see the bad guy in front of you, so you take careful aim, shout a warning, he moves and you shoot. You hear the crash of breaking glass as a high powered bullet screams through the window, less then a second later, you hear a second crash as it rips through a window across the street striking some poor schlub who was having his last smoke before he goes to bed.

Guns are the uncontrollable element, you might do well in a range, but you have no way of knowing how your going to react when the bullets need to start flying. Its not like Hollywood either where the bullet stops in a table top or in the wall, either.

And if your going to use a gun for self defense, you have to balance decisive with good decision making, and you'd better be prepared to move beyond holding a gun in a threatening manner in one easy step.

Personally I'd prefer to keep guns out of the hands of most people.

And I lived in Texas in my university years, and I understand that the U.S. considers itself to be the last great gun culture, and the right to have one is protected.

But the one additional thing, is that holding a gun, and pointing it at another human being might make you feel like you have the power over the situation, but you don't, that gun has all of the power.

[TylerSVT]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I think women walking around with handguns is dangerous and ultimately ineffective.

What are the chances your average professional woman will be able or willing to shoot someone when under stress? The chances of hitting a target aren't great to begin with, and that's assuming she can bring herself to actually pull the trigger.

Non lethal solutions like bear spray are IMO a much better option for several resons.

1) It's much more likely anyone would be willing to use it against an attacker as they don't have to think that they might kill someone
2) It's much more likely to be effective, as it's a lot easier to hit someone with a stream of liquid than a small bullet
3) It can't be used fatally against the woman who has it. Sure it won't be pleaseant if her attacker gets a hold of it, but the consequences are nothing compared to having her own gun turned on her
4) It's not potentially lethal against innocent bystanders

My mom spends a lot of time alone at my folks cabin. My dad is pretty pro gun, and when my folks decided my mom should have some way to defend herself when she's out there alone, they sure as hell didn't decide it would be a good idea to have a gun lying around the house, as as soon as it becomes useful for her to protect herself, it introduces a whole new danger to the rest of the household.

+1

The training that people do for firearm safety and use (such as the type police do) is VERY VERY intense, when i took my CFSC the instructor told me he teaches an entire 16 hour class just on how to carry and use a holstered gun, im pretty sure jane doe carrying a 9mm isnt going to know how to react or deal with a situation if she ever needed to use the gun.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by transplant99

No it isnt.

I have been shooting with buddies down here a few times, and not once did I aim the gun at a person or any living thing for that matter...and niether did the guys I was with.

I don't own a gun as i haven't that desire, but the VAST majority that do are extremely responsible with them.

then leave your weapons at the range, I have no problem with that.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by TylerSVT

Gun Crazy americans drive me mental, its not difficult to pull out a gun and shoot someone when you have adrenaline pumping... id rather that privilege be given to those who are trained to handle it (see police)

This. It should be a provilege, not a right that most American's think they deserve because someone put in in the Bill of Rights 300 years ago.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by HOOT

This. It should be a provilege, not a right that most American's think they deserve because someone put in in the Bill of Rights 300 years ago.

Exactly.
Let's not forget that these are the same guys who also said it was okay to own people.

Why is it that the founding fathers are regarded as completely infallible in cases like this, but people totally ignore that they got some things so completely wrong they had to fight a freaking civil war over it.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by habernac

then leave your weapons at the range, I have no problem with that.

We weren't at a range, we were out on one of the guys property in a thicket of trees and bushes as far as one could see.

[Beerfest]

Originally Posted by habernac

then leave your weapons at the range, I have no problem with that.

But you have a problem with a homeowner properly defending his family from a robber that has a gun?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by HOOT

This. It should be a provilege, not a right that most American's think they deserve because someone put in in the Bill of Rights 300 years ago.

It your right to own a gun in Canada as well if you so choose.

[troutman]

“And yes, the founding fathers wanted you to have the right to bear arms, but the guys who wrote that would pee through all eight layers of their pants if they saw what guns are now. In 1787 shooting a bullet was only slightly faster than throwing one. If you wanted to be bullet proof in 1787 you put on a heavy coat. So with that in mind, I’m all about Americans having guns, as long as they’re the muskets from 1787 that take forever to load.”

- Seth Meyers - SNL Weekend Update 1/15/11

Gun control? We need bullet control! I think every bullet should cost 5,000 dollars. Because if a bullet cost 5,000 dollars, we wouldn't have any innocent bystanders.

- Chris Rock

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Beerfest

But you have a problem with a homeowner properly defending his family from a robber that has a gun?

I know this isn't directed at me, but I stand by my position that for the vast majority of people, there are much safer and effective methods of defending yourself against someone with a gun.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by habernac

because the sole reason for an automobile's existence isn't to kill people.

Nope, just helps move troops and equipment to help kill more people efficiently in war.

[Beerfest]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I know this isn't directed at me, but I stand by my position that for the vast majority of people, there are much safer and effective methods of defending yourself against someone with a gun.

uh, like what?

A man with a gun enters your home...what are some safer and effective methods of your defending you and your family?

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

First of all, a shotgun under the bed, regardless of having children in the house, is not anywhere near what I would call responsible storage of a firearm. A lock box is better, but again, not anywhere near what I would consider ideal. For the record I have several long guns, and a pistol in my house. The long guns are in a 400 lb safe with trigger locks, and when possible bolts removed, and in a seperate locked compartment of the safe. The pistol is in in a lock box, with a trigger lock, in that same safe.

Are those guns going to be any good to me in a home invasion in their current state? Aboslutely not, but they certainly aren't going to be stolen any time soon, and they won't be used for anything I don't intend them to be used for. The fact that my guns are stored safely is much more peace of mind for me, than the potential that they could help me in the INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY event that an armed assailant would break into my house while I was home.

As for your situation, that sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Sounds to me like you've set yourself up to get shot accidentially by your fiance.
What's to say she isn't tired, drunk, or groggy when you come home at some strange hour, and she mistakes you for an intruder, and you get shot?

Is that a likely scenario? Probably not, but what is the likely hood of anyone actually needing to use those guns you have in your bedroom for home protection? Well I'd say judging by statics of accidents involving improperly stored firearms, vs home invasions, that the former is much more likely than the later.

That's the problem I have with people who insist on having a gun on hand for self defence. They're protecting against an incredibly minute risk, by introducing a much larger one.

Are you implying my fiance is ######ed? Because when people come home they don't tend to Van Dam the door in and ram sack the place on their way to the bed room.