[PGT] Flames 6, Bolts 3: The Never Ending PGT

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Prospects are interesting topics of conversation for readers.

Especially when those prospects have meaningful upside.

Especially when those prospects are former first round picks fans have followed for nearly five years.

Especially when for the organization that was the NHL debut of the first prospect drafted in 4.5 years.

It ain't rocket science.The game/win itself was nice, but has no real long term implication. That same opponent embarassed itself in Edmonton a couple days prior. It wasn't a four-point swing game in the standings. It wasn't a playoff game. It wasn't indicative of any long term turnaround. Stopping a slide is pretty meaningless in a season where the pattern is win two, lose two, win two, lose three, win two, lose two. Vladar's play has not elicited any excitement from the coach who will continue to roll Markstrom going forward (he enen implied as much when... asked about Vladar). Composure is a narrative that has more to do with outcomes in a chance based game than it does with itself - if a puck bounces off a referee's skate and the Lightning tie it up at 4-4 suddenly the Flames' composure is questioned. If Vasilevsky catches Dube's shot with his glove suddenly the Flames' composure is questioned.

The vast majority of questions media ask are already framed by narratives that try to explain simple or random results with complexity where there is none.

When it comes to prospects, that's an actual tangible topic of discussion that doesn't need some storyline about how the team banded together in the incredible complex task of glass n out and pucks deep and getting a bounce.

Why?

Because the prospect has the potential to impact winning long term, whereas this win does not affect future wins.

You’re acting like this is the first question anyone was allowed to ask about Pelletier since he got here and Sutter still shut it down. In reality, it was one of many, some of which Sutter went into a lot of detail answering.

You watched the game. The article would’ve been written with or without a Sutter quote, and I’m assuming you read all of Salim’s stuff. So, would your understanding of Pelletier’s 6 minutes or your enjoyment of his article hinge on a quote from Sutter reading “Played fine, long way to go”?

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by direwolf

lol, can’t believe we’re still talking about this. Such a ridiculous non-story.

No kidding. I wasn't even aware this was an issue as I had a busy weekend and suddenly I'm seeing a bunch of people are up in arms because Sutter brushed off Pelletier's debut game? Is he supposed to sit there and pump the kids tires for 5 minutes so the media can get some great bites after the Flames just whipped the Lightning and it should be about the team, and the rest of the players that really stepped up (not the kid who played 7 minutes)...

Man some people need to grow thicker skin these days, we are talking about professional athletes, not children here! And why am I not surprised Francis is the one riling up the masses?

[taxbuster]

Personally I think this thread should be locked and I'm absolutely outraged that Reggie keeps changing its title.

For the thin-skinned: just kidding ....

[topfiverecords]

Listening to Flames Talk post game podcast from Saturday and 6 minutes in Cail MacLean talks with Pat and Peter about Pelletier’s first game for 2 1/2 minutes. Lots of meat there for the media to fill their word count quotas after Sutter didn’t write the material for them.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Listening to Flames Talk post game podcast from Saturday and 6 minutes in Cail MacLean talks with Pat and Peter about Pelletier’s first game for 2 1/2 minutes. Lots of meat there for the media to fill their word count quotas after Sutter didn’t write the material for them.

Sutter definitely wrote the material for them on Saturday.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

I really wonder what that's all about. I know it's easy to say they have more faith in Vladar so they play looser, but I don't know if that's actually the case

Darren Haynes noted that Vladar has a better save percentage in the first period, with the tangible effect that the Flames aren't having to play from behind because they give up early goals.

I think once teams get the lead against us, we have a harder time getting quality scoring chances and end up shooting more from the outside. Compare that to playing with the lead -- we're good at checking and counter-punching so if the other team takes more chances we can capitalize.

I think that fits the eye test -- Vladar has been much better than Markstrom early on, especially when it comes to softer goals.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by browna

The Valji stuff about all comes from the podcast where he said that off the record, earlier that same week, apparently Sutter said that Phillips was too small.

Whether it's true or not or the context of what Sutter said isn't the issue; beat reporters have an understanding and trust with the team they are covering that off the record means off the record.

If Valji is ignoring that understanding, Sutter isn't going to have any time for him, especially if Valji is already beating the "Sutter is stuck in the past, hates small young skilled players, is demanding control and because of that Treliving will leave to Toronto" schtick that he's concocted the past month or so...and to that end, makes sure he asks Sutter about the young skilled players as soon as he can spit it out of his mouth post game.

I agree what happened is that the second Valji opened his mouth Sutter knew it was going to be a question about Pelletier because he keeps asking about the young guys (it was the same when Phillips was called up). Here is Sutter's response to him when he was "point-blank" (but not really) asked about Phillips:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1598752486663553024

And then the stuff on the podcast came out... I don't think Sutter is scrolling TSN and twitter after games but I'm sure he has a pulse on what's out there and when it's the same guys asking the same questions.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Yep, the team plays way more confident in front of Vladar, the eye test shows that to me.

I think a lot of people see that but the eye test is not allowed according to some people because the stats don't back it up lol.

Both things have a place, and sometimes stats don't tell the whole story.

The Flames looked faster and more aggressive in every zone on Saturday. Under Markstrom they looked like a team gripping the sticks and just sticking to the structure because they are probably worried every shot is going in.

[FBI]

I got through this whole thread!!

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

I think a lot of people see that but the eye test is not allowed according to some people because the stats don't back it up lol.

Both things have a place, and sometimes stats don't tell the whole story.

The Flames looked faster and more aggressive in every zone on Saturday. Under Markstrom they looked like a team gripping the sticks and just sticking to the structure because they are probably worried every shot is going in.

Just give it a rest man.

Eye test is a pretty weak way of saying my opinion or subjective. When someone has a narrative built in and see only what they want to see the eye test is a pretty dangerous place to live.

Luckily we have stats to back it up.

I like Vladar and I hope he gets starts, but I'm not willing to go down this road where we attribute the ability of every player on the team to play by who is in net.

The Flames played a great game on Saturday afternoon. They only gave up 7 high danger chances in all situations and an expected goals against of 3.11. Vladar gave up three. He was solid but the story wasn't Calgary goaltending for once.

Markstrom has to be better, no argument at all. And it's great that the Flames have a solid back up to pick up some wins, but the need to throw the veteran under the bus to support the backup is insane to me.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by FBI

I got through this whole thread!!

I've printed T-shirts:

"I read through the entire PGT, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt".

$50 each.

[Ashes]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I blame millennials. They get upset about everything.

[chummer]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

I think a lot of people see that but the eye test is not allowed according to some people because the stats don't back it up lol.

Both things have a place, and sometimes stats don't tell the whole story.

The Flames looked faster and more aggressive in every zone on Saturday. Under Markstrom they looked like a team gripping the sticks and just sticking to the structure because they are probably worried every shot is going in.

Lol, such a bad take puckluck.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah it is pretty bad these days whether it be the Flames side or Off Topic. There should be no problem with people that have polar opposite opinions on any topic that's up for discussion but there seems to be zero tolerance and a lack of respect by both extremes. It seems like a sign of the times on social media where people have never been more divided. It's a shame because at the end of the day I think most of the posters at CP are good people that are simply getting sucked into the same circular arguments with posters they have deemed adversaries. I can't be the only person here that has nobody on ignore and has no issues skirting by posts that I don't fee warrants a response? It seems too many posters get fixated on the opinions of others rather than letting them have their say and just moving on with the discussion. I think we can all be better here as this is just forum banter and should not be so serious that it gets your blood boiling.

I agree with everything, except I will say this about the bolded. a lot of posters seem to take offence when their opinion gets challenged. It's a forum, so by definition people read what posters say and comment on it. The problem is the escalation and, IMO, the use of individual instances to support agendas (which in turn are often based on unrealistic expectations).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

I think a lot of people see that but the eye test is not allowed according to some people because the stats don't back it up lol.

Both things have a place, and sometimes stats don't tell the whole story.

The Flames looked faster and more aggressive in every zone on Saturday. Under Markstrom they looked like a team gripping the sticks and just sticking to the structure because they are probably worried every shot is going in.

This seems like a narrative driving what you are seeing. Someone might equally say Markstrom is gripping his stick over overplaying his angles because he knows that any mistake will not be overcome by his team's offence.

I think Vladar is playing well, but not as well as some are making out. He has let in goals that Markstrom does, but doesn't get half the grief. If Markstrom had rebounded that puck out which went in off a foot, or had let in the clapper from Stamkos, he'd have been criticized for it. Guaranteed.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Just give it a rest man.

Eye test is a pretty weak way of saying my opinion or subjective. When someone has a narrative built in and see only what they want to see the eye test is a pretty dangerous place to live.

Luckily we have stats to back it up.

I like Vladar and I hope he gets starts, but I'm not willing to go down this road where we attribute the ability of every player on the team to play by who is in net.

The Flames played a great game on Saturday afternoon. They only gave up 7 high danger chances in all situations and an expected goals against of 3.11. Vladar gave up three. He was solid but the story wasn't Calgary goaltending for once.

Markstrom has to be better, no argument at all. And it's great that the Flames have a solid back up to pick up some wins, but the need to throw the veteran under the bus to support the backup is insane to me.

For me it is this simple for why Vladar should not only get starts but should be the starter until he starts losing.

Last 10 starts for both goalies

Markstrom 5-4-1 - 11 points
Vladar - 7-0-3 - 17 points

Quality of opposition in those 10 starts

Markstrom - 3 games against playoff teams, 7 games against non-playoff teams
Vladar - 7 games against playoff teams and 3 games against non playoff teams.

Vladar plays harder opponents and is keeping the Flames in the playoff hunt. If Vladar had the same record as Markstrom over the past 10 games the Flames would be 11th place, 6 points out of a playoff spot with the 8th place team having two games in hand. Instead they are tied for 8th with Colorado having two games in hand and with a realistic chance of passing Edmonton or LA.

Regardless of how he did it, Vladar’s win-loss record is almost single handedly keeping the Flames in the playoff hunt.

In 4 points games (games against western conference playoff teams) Markstrom is 1-2. Vladar is 3-0-1.

In games against playoff contenders in the west (including St Louis and Nashville games) Markstrom is 1-3-1 and Vladar is 4-0-1. He is overperforming his 6 point advantage in 4 point western conference games (pro-rated over 10 games that would be a 12 point advantage).

[activeStick]

Well, Francis is now on the Jeff Marek Show and they're talking about the Sutter comments... Marek agrees with Francis' takes and feels that Sutter humiliated the kid a little bit and imagines it doesn't sit well with the parents or the players in the room... This is blowing up now that Marek had this as their second story on the program after he kicked the show off about the Canucks

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Well, Francis is now on the Jeff Marek Show and they're talking about the Sutter comments... Marek agrees with Francis' takes and feels that Sutter humiliated the kid a little bit and imagines it doesn't sit well with the parents or the players in the room... This is blowing up now that Marek had this as their second story on the program after he kicked the show off about the Canucks

Friedman also had this to say on his podcast

https://twitter.com/user/status/1617543703345909762

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

For me it is this simple for why Vladar should not only get starts but should be the starter until he starts losing.

Last 10 starts for both goalies

Markstrom 5-4-1 - 11 points
Vladar - 7-0-3 - 17 points

Quality of opposition in those 10 starts

Markstrom - 3 games against playoff teams, 7 games against non-playoff teams
Vladar - 7 games against playoff teams and 3 games against non playoff teams.

Vladar plays harder opponents and is keeping the Flames in the playoff hunt. If Vladar had the same record as Markstrom over the past 10 games the Flames would be 11th place, 6 points out of a playoff spot with the 8th place team having two games in hand. Instead they are tied for 8th with Colorado having two games in hand and with a realistic chance of passing Edmonton or LA.

Regardless of how he did it, Vladar’s win-loss record is almost single handedly keeping the Flames in the playoff hunt.

In 4 points games (games against western conference playoff teams) Markstrom is 1-2. Vladar is 3-0-1.

In games against playoff contenders in the west (including St Louis and Nashville games) Markstrom is 1-3-1 and Vladar is 4-0-1. He is overperforming his 6 point advantage in 4 point western conference games (pro-rated over 10 games that would be a 12 point advantage).

No issues with that.

He's getting wins, and for now I think that takes a huge importance.

Having said that they can't let their starter just go bone cold either, there has to be a plan.

So 100% Vladar? No ... doesn't make sense.

Go tandem until either Markstrom settles in, or clearly doesn't? That's how I'd go.

[Bingo]

Personally I don't care what Marek or Friedman think.

Anyone who thought Sutter wasn't a hard ass coach before they offered up their opinions are not living on this planet.

We've seen this team with player's coaches in the past though, remember? They've changed the core so maybe that's old news, but man the thought of going back to the post Peters Flames scares the hell out of me

(and this is coming from the light guy in the room whenever I coached)