Ongoing Residential Schools Tragedy Discussion

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Who is we? I don't like this grouping. You as a white guy have as much to do with this as me, which is nothing. It's something that happened 100 years ago.

Should the government apologize, yes. Should the church apologize, yes. But why are ordinary white people in their 20s and 30s apologizing and feeling guilty for something that happened in 1880? People on twitter (i know i know) are posting that they feel ashamed of the land they stand on, i fear they are going to off themselves (they're not)

Please tell me the detrimental affect acknowledging or trying to make amends will cause you.

I think of it this way:

How would I feel when my children that I love unconditionally were taken from me.

How would I feel when that child ran away and showed up at my house.

How would I feel when the authorities showed up to take that child away again.

There wouldn't be enough rage in the world to satisfy me.

Try some empathy.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Please tell me the detrimental affect acknowledging or trying to make amends will cause you.

I think of it this way:

How would I feel when my children that I love unconditionally were taken from me.

How would I feel when that child ran away and showed up at my house.

How would I feel when the authorities showed up to take that child away again.

There wouldn't be enough rage in the world to satisfy me.

Try some empathy.

Sure but it's not a white, non-white thing, it's all Canadians. I have to show as much empathy as you. Don't take whites as a group and blame them for 1880 events. Do you know what i mean? We all have a part to play.

You should not feel guiltier than me. I'm Canadian born, I have benefited too.

[CliffFletcher]

It’s funny how much ####ting on religion has gone on in this thread when the notion of collective guilt and atonement is unheard of outside Christian cultures.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It’s funny how much ####ting on religion has gone on in this thread when the notion of collective guilt and atonement is unheard of outside Christian cultures.

lol, imma need some back-up on that claim.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Sliver

IDK. I'm not in favour of a piecemeal approach to reconciliation. Gestures here and there aren't going to help. Is there anything we can do as non-Indigenous Canadians to reconcile the past and move forward with the majority of First Nations in a way that FN people generally agree is reasonable?

So we cancel Canada Day, is everyone happy now? Of course not.

We acknowledge the land we occupy before school assemblies and office tower meetings, is that enough? No, and it shouldn't be.

I need to see a road map that we can all agree to that says if we do X, Y and Z we'll have paid our dues, we will be forgiven, and we can move forward and start healing from the shame. I don't want my grandkids still atoning for this. I'd like to take care of it now, so just need to know what to do. I'm not behind token gestures for the rest of my life based on what the Twittersphere says we need to be doing. This'll get ridiculous and we'll all end up bitter if that's what we do.

I think while the current system is set up there won't ever be an end to reconciliation.

[CrunchBite]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Who is we? I don't like this grouping. You as a white guy have as much to do with this as me, which is nothing. It's something that happened 100 years ago.

Should the government apologize, yes. Should the church apologize, yes. But why are ordinary white people in their 20s and 30s apologizing and feeling guilty for something that happened in 1880? People on twitter (i know i know) are posting that they feel ashamed of the land they stand on, i fear they are going to off themselves (they're not)

The last residential school closed in 1996...

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sliver

lol, imma need some back-up on that claim.

Compare how their actions in WW2 have been handled in Japan vs Germany, in their schools, pop culture, etc. Do you see any public demonstrations of shame in China over its treatment of Tibet or the Uyghurs? Or Turkish recognition, let alone guilt or atonement, over the Armenian genocide?

Christian mores are so deeply rooted in our culture even atheists don’t recognize them. But go ahead and offer some examples of non-Christian cultures collectively expressing guilt and making demonstrations of public atonement for acts in the past.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Compare how their actions in WW2 have been handled in Japan vs Germany, in their schools, pop culture, etc. Do you see any public demonstrations of shame in China over its treatment of Tibet or the Uyghurs? Or Turkish recognition, let alone guilt or atonement, over the Armenian genocide?

Christian mores are so deeply rooted in our culture even atheists don’t recognize them. But go ahead and offer some examples of non-Christian cultures collectively expressing guilt and making demonstrations of public atonement for acts in the past.

Well, like it's literally in the wiki under "atonement":

Concepts of atonement also exist in other religious views. For example, in Native American and Mestizo cultures of the Americas, "[s]ince sin and guilt are among the principal causes of illness and maladjustment... confession, atonement, and absolution are frequent rituals used in treatment. In some cases, atonement is accomplished through prayer or penance; in others, it may involve cleansing the body, accomplished by brushing the body with branches of rosemary or by sprinkling it with holy water".

But, setting that aside, I guess I don't get your point. Atheists are influenced by the culture in which they live? Ah, yeah, thanks for the hot tip.

[MarchHare]

The most important Jewish holiday, Yom Kippur, is literally The Day of Atonement. But do please go on and continue with this nonsense that atonement is a uniquely Christian quality.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Well, like it's literally in the wiki under "atonement":


But, setting that aside, I guess I don't get your point. Atheists are influenced by the culture in which they live? Ah, yeah, thanks for the hot tip.

Those are acts of atonement for acts that the individual recently carried out. They’ve not collective acts of atonement for acts a community carried out in the past.

The irony I’m pointing out is people who express contempt for religion turning around and calling for their community to carry out essentially religious acts.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Those are acts of atonement for acts that the individual recently carried out. They’ve not collective acts of atonement for acts a community carried out in the past.

The irony I’m pointing out is people who express contempt for religion turning around and calling for their community to carry out essentially religious acts.

Atonement is a religious act in your view only. There's no irony here. Is our society/culture influenced by Christianity? Sure. Is atonement a Christian virtue? Only in the mind of a Christian. You can atone and it can be completely independent of Jesus, Mary, God, the Holy Ghost, the Garden of Eden, Moses, Job and anything else related to Christianity.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

The most important Jewish holiday, Yom Kippur, is literally The Day of Atonement. But do please go on and continue with this nonsense that atonement is a uniquely Christian quality.

Sorry, Judeo-Christian. But go ahead and offer up some modern examples of non-Judeo-Christian cultures carrying out collective acts of guilt like what some are calling for in response to the residential school system.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Sorry, Judeo-Christian. But go ahead and offer up some modern examples of non-Judeo-Christian cultures carrying out collective acts of guilt like what some are calling for in response to the residential school system.

How about areligious collective acts of atonement? You don't need Christ to atone.

This is weird.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Those are acts of atonement for acts that the individual recently carried out. They’ve not collective acts of atonement for acts a community carried out in the past.

The irony I’m pointing out is people who express contempt for religion turning around and calling for their community to carry out essentially religious acts.

This is not irony. Nor is it remotely unusual or humourous for a group of people to promote a positive Judeo-Christian value while criticizing the church or the concept of modern religion as a whole.

Judeo-Christian religions promote plenty of positive values, many of which society as a whole, even those who are not part of those religions, have adopted.

This is a weird, embarrassing attempt at a gotchya, when the actual irony is that in your attempt to prove we owe our moral goodness to religion, you've proved that modern moral goodness is no longer dependent on the belief in God or the following of religion.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This is a weird, embarrassing attempt at a gotchya, when the actual irony is that in your attempt to prove we owe our moral goodness to religion, you've proved that modern moral goodness is no longer dependent on the belief in God or the following of religion.

Where did I say these symbolic gestures are a moral good? I’d be happy if we left these rituals behind us the same way many have left the supernatural elements of religion behind.

As for the broader subject of the Christian roots of modern Western morality, I recommend Tom Holland’s recent book Dominion, reviewed here:

https://www.newstatesman.com/dominio...holland-review

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Where did I say these symbolic gestures are a moral good? I’d be happy if we left these rituals behind us the same way many have left the supernatural elements of religion behind.

As for the broader subject of the Christian roots of modern Western morality, I recommend Tom Holland’s recent book Dominion, reviewed here:

https://www.newstatesman.com/dominio...holland-review

Huh? You're now suggesting collective atonement, described as "taking action to correct a previous wrong doing," is not morally good? Or are you saying that none of this actually qualifies as collective atonement, even though that's what you described it as?

Sorry, nobody is arguing about the historical influence of religion in morality, even though that's the conversation you want to have. The argument is that, perhaps because of the influence, you no longer need to be religious or follow God to have a moral compass. I'm not sure why that needs repeating, it's been said several times...

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Huh? You're now suggesting collective atonement, described as "taking action to correct a previous wrong doing," is not morally good? Or are you saying that none of this actually qualifies as collective atonement, even though that's what you described it as?

Sorry, nobody is arguing about the historical influence of religion in morality, even though that's the conversation you want to have. The argument is that, perhaps because of the influence, you no longer need to be religious or follow God to have a moral compass. I'm not sure why that needs repeating, it's been said several times...

Taking concrete measures to measurably improve peoples’ lives = good in the utilitarian sense.

Making collective expressions of guilt and atonement = good in the religious sense.

I favour the former. The latter is mainly about demonstrating the moral virtue of the people carrying out the rituals. That’s true whether it’s performed in a church or on twitter.

[shogged]

well I guess lets be thankful (can i be thankful and not be religious?) that not all elements of Christianity have entered mainstream society the way atonement and morality has, otherwise we'd all be child molesters as well.

[afc wimbledon]

All evil karma ever committed by me since of old,

on account of my beginningless greed, anger and ignorance,

born of my body, mouth and thought,

now I atone for it all.

Buddha says hi

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Taking concrete measures to measurably improve peoples’ lives = good in the utilitarian sense.

Making collective expressions of guilt and atonement = good in the religious sense.

I favour the former. The latter is mainly about demonstrating the moral virtue of the people carrying out the rituals.

Good thing society does not have to choose to do one or the other, regardless if it often positions it as a choice.

I'm confused slightly by how confused your position seems to be on this. Let me see if I have this correct:

- Collective atonement is a Judeo-Christian value
- Judeo-Christian values are at the root of Western morality
- Collective atonement is not morally good
- But, collective atonement is morally good in the religious sense

Isn't everything that is morally good, morally good in the religious sense if religion is at the root of our morality?

On the other hand, isn't the suggestion that something morally good (in a religious sense) serves only to prove the moral virtue of the person making the expression, a dismissal of Judeo-Christian values? Wouldn't it be strange to defend religion and it's importance to people if we agreed even the best parts of it were ultimately a self-serving way to prove the moral goodness of the follower?

It seems that if we agree that things good in the religious sense and not a utilitarian sense are less important or worthwhile, then the purpose of religion is questionable, and it wouldn't make a lot of sense to defend it. Unless of course "good in the religious sense" is actually worth defending.