[Trade] Russell to the Stars for Jokipakka, Pollock & 2nd (becomes 1st if conf finals)

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

It's like arguing with a rock.

Unfortunately you can skip a lot of rocks.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

...
When Fleury was Gaudreau's age he had a 51 goal (2nd in league) 104 pts (8th in league) season and was +48. He had 96 NHL goals...

Here's something else that will blow your mind: Gio makes 100x the amount that Orr made. Think about it... just how overpaid is our captain? Some thing's wrong here.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

So you agree with us now. Thank you for illustrating our point that that team was significantly worse than the current team.

Gaudreau > Fleury
Monahan >> Stillman
Bennett v Iginla???? Too early to tell
Our 1st rounder this year >>>>> Hoglund
Frolik >>> Marty McInnis
Backlund >>> ???

Our prospects now >>> Fata/Tkaczuk who both busted

Brodie >>> Morris
Giordano >>> Albelin or Patrick or ZZ
Hamilton >>> Albelin or Patrick or ZZ

No comparison really. Thanks for joining us in reality. This years team is WAY better than the young guns era. Miles ahead. Light years perhaps.

IMO our organization has the most valuable and most promising number of young players, prospects and picks that we've ever had since the early 90's. The future is brighter than it has ever been in my entire time of following the team.

Nice troll job though, well trolled as always.

I agree with almost everything you say, but Gaudreau > Fleury???

Fleury had over 1000 games played and is a career PPG+ player.

If it's "too early to tell if Bennett will be better than Iginla", maybe we should tone down the Gaudreau hype a touch?

[Table 5]

I don't care what the points and stats say, those mid/late 90s teams were not only bad, but because of circumstances, also utterly hopeless. They not only sucked hard, you knew they were going to suck for a long time. They had a Brian Sutter who squeezed every little bit of juice out of that bitter lemon, but you never really felt that they were about to turn the corner. Todd Simpson being captain was the low point for me.

Todays team is virtually the same one that went to the 2nd round of the playoffs last year (on paper they are even better). With average goaltending this team may still have not made it, but they would've been battling for a spot. Those Young Guns teams were out of it before the season began.

[Ashasx]

The Flames possession numbers have improved since Russell was traded.

But of course, small sample size.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

I agree with almost everything you say, but Gaudreau > Fleury???

Fleury had over 1000 games played and is a career PPG+ player.

If it's "too early to tell if Bennett will be better than Iginla", maybe we should tone down the Gaudreau hype a touch?

I'm a huge, huge Fleury fan. He's my favourite Flame when I first started watching the team. I just think Gaudreau has the talent and upside to be a top 5 scorer in the NHL. I don't believe Fleury ever was. So yes, for me Little Johnny looks like he'll be better than Fleury. It's no slight to Fleury, it's more of a huge compliment for Little Johnny.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The Flames possession numbers have improved since Russell was traded.

But of course, small sample size.

I'm not arguing on 1 side or another, but important to remember that Russell's last game as a Flame was Feb 12, 2 weeks earlier than the trade.

[mdubz]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The Flames possession numbers have improved since Russell was traded.

But of course, small sample size.

They were garbage when he was still here and out of the lineup from injury.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I'm a huge, huge Fleury fan. He's my favourite Flame when I first started watching the team. I just think Gaudreau has the talent and upside to be a top 5 scorer in the NHL. I don't believe Fleury ever was. So yes, for me Little Johnny looks like he'll be better than Fleury. It's no slight to Fleury, it's more of a huge compliment for Little Johnny.

I agree he "might be". Just saying its way too early to tell. Fleury is arguably a HHOF player.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

I'm not arguing on 1 side or another, but important to remember that Russell's last game as a Flame was Feb 12, 2 weeks earlier than the trade.

Yes, in referring to when Russell played for the Flames versus when he does not.

[edslunch]

I haven't watched the Stars - do they play a fundamentally different system than the Flames? Here, players are encouraged to block shots and Russell excelled at that, maybe to a fault.

[Vulcan]

Yeah, the late 90s teams had no hope. If a player became a star, we couldn't afford to keep him. The salary cap has brought some sanity back to the league where parity has brought each fan base a chance to win. We have a strong foundation that we should be able to keep for years to come.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

I'm not arguing on 1 side or another, but important to remember that Russell's last game as a Flame was Feb 12, 2 weeks earlier than the trade.

Since Russell's last game the flames are above 50%. However, the top team in the league (non score adjusted) is Toronto.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Since Russell's last game the flames are above 50%. However, the top team in the league (non score adjusted) is Toronto.

Obviously he was the problem. Even Hiller has only lost a couple times since Russell was traded

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Obviously he was the problem. Even Hiller has only lost a couple times since Russell was traded

I'm pointing out how small the sample sizes are and the difficulty in analyzing anything with them

[Itse]

Whether or not you consider the potential of the team when deciding which of two teams is better is very much a matter of taste.

On one hand, potential = hope. It doesn't mean anything right now, and doesn't necessarily translate into success in the future.

On the other hand you'd obviously rather have potential than not have it.

Personally if you ask me whether or not this is the worst Flames teams ever, I'd just go with the standings. It's the most unbiased way of looking at it IMO. Maybe next season is better, maybe it isn't.

I'm also not as convinced about the bright future of the team as some other people seem to be. Right now we lack top end skill, size, and goaltending, plus just depth in general. That's a lot of holes for one team. We really have only one really good contract in Brodie, and quite a few bad to terrible contracts. (Stajan, Engelland, Smid, Bouma, Wideman.)

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Itse

There really isn't.

When a top guy gets injured the 2nd pairing guys eat more minutes. Russell did that in Calgary too.

He's been okay but not in any way spectacular in Dallas. No points 5-on-5, couple of powerplay assists, -1 in a winning team.

Happens with Russell stepping up both last years drive and this year in Dallas.

So with Brodie, Russell and Wideman out of the Flames lineup Hamilton has had 3 games out of 15 where he has had more than his normal 18-21 minutes

Over the same period Engelland has had only 1 game as a #1 pairing (25 minutes against (Pittsburgh..... but has upped his ice time to basically the same as Hamilton (19-21 minutes) up from his regular 10-14 minutes.

All credentials and expectations would have guessed that Hamilton would have been able to pick up an extra 5 minutes a game with Russell, Wideman and Brodie missing..... any ideas why not?

[dying4acup]

Is it just me, or are the Flames considerably bigger as a team since the deadline?

Looking at the roster, I think Johnny is the only player under 6'

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Itse

Personally if you ask me whether or not this is the worst Flames teams ever, I'd just go with the standings. It's the most unbiased way of looking at it IMO. Maybe next season is better, maybe it isn't.

Hard to compare across eras though. We haven't had expansion in a while and the game has grown globally and I think the overall talent level in the league today is miles ahead of where it was in the mid 90's.

Originally Posted by Itse

I'm also not as convinced about the bright future of the team as some other people seem to be. Right now we lack top end skill, size, and goaltending, plus just depth in general. That's a lot of holes for one team. We really have only one really good contract in Brodie, and quite a few bad to terrible contracts. (Stajan, Engelland, Smid, Bouma, Wideman.)

1. Veteran UFAs get overpaid
2. Unrealistic not to have a few veterans
3. Therefore every team is going to have a few inefficient veteran contracts for guys who's contributions may be as big off ice as on. You can't have an entire team of guys who are steals cause they are on entry level contracts.

Stajan is overpaid for his on ice performance but I think they like his leadership. His contract is far from crippling, mild overpay. Not sure how we'd trade him with that contract and the NTC so I'd imagine he just stays.

Engelland is paid going rate as far as I'm concerned. I've been very happy with his play, and I think the Flames like his leadership too. He plays an important role because along with Jokipakka he's the only Flames defenseman who plays a physical, tough style. I'd lean towards keeping him, I think he'd have great value if they wanted to move him.

Smid it's hard to evaluate since we don't know if he'll play again or what.

Bouma is a mild overpay for a guy who I think is a real identity guy for your bottom lines. You had to overpay because of his great goal numbers. I love his intangibles more than some posters and I think he's a great guy to keep around. He's hard to play against, will sacrifice himself to stop shot, great on the PK, great on the forecheck, one of our hardest checkers, and has the hands to occasionally pot one. You keep guys like that IMO, even if they may be mildly overpaid.

Wideman is the most overpaid Flame for his role IMO. I think his salary doesn't make sense in our structure and I think it could easily make sense for another team that is looking for a right shooting defenseman who has a big point shot. I think he's definitely tradeable this summer as long as he waives the NMC which I think he would just to get away from the Canadian media and this linesman fiasco.

[united]

Using a six-game sample size to evaluate a player is poor idea - unless it fits a narrative of course - as it's so volatile. Here's his six-game moving average - not a lot of consistency in a small sample.