[Signing] Flames sign Brouwer (4 yrs, $4.5mil AAV, NTC)

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by dash_pinched

You really think being condescending is the best course of action at this point?

Take a look at the post I was responding to and tell me the correct course of action.

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Take a look at the post I was responding to and tell me the correct course of action.

Not be condescending when called out on leaning towards the advanced stats a little too much during player judgement.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Firebot

One thing I don't get.

Frolik was signed to a 5 year 4.3 million dollar AAV contract just a year ago and is only 2 years younger than Brouwer.

Brouwer is bigger and is the definition of a power forward, and has been scoring at the same 40 point ratio as Frolik. He was signed to a 4 year (less term) 4.5 million AAV contract.

People liked Frolik's contract last year and it was still good now. His contract will be ending while he is 33, while Brouwer's contract will end at 34.

The magical 30 seems to be clouding people's judgement.

Because there is a very vocal minority on this board that hates players that are "truculent" or resemble anything that Brian Burke would like. You know exactly who it is who will hate a signing or a trade or an acquisition just buy looking at the type of player acquired.

Pretty much all the people who hate this acquisition are in this vocal minority. It's the same old posters who hate on Bollig and Engelland.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

Not be condescending when called out on leaning towards the advanced stats a little too much during player judgement.

My post made no mention of advanced stats. The first 20 pages of this thread already laid out that discussion.

But to imply that I can't have an opinion because I like seeing the information that hero charts provide as a tool, and thus my opinion on everything is tainted?

Who is being condescending?

[PsYcNeT]

I like how advanced stats are getting better every year at (being a piece of) explaining player performance, and as they get better, the argument shifts away from "well what about x, y, z factors?" as those factors begin to be taken into the equations, and towards "well, advance stats *rolls eyes*".

[devo22]

Originally Posted by 868904

Because there is a very vocal minority on this board that hates players that are "truculent" or resemble anything that Brian Burke would like. You know exactly who it is who will hate a signing or a trade or an acquisition just buy looking at the type of player acquired.

Pretty much all the people who hate this acquisition are in this vocal minority. It's the same old posters who hate on Bollig and Engelland.

nah let's not generalize. Take me for example, I absolutely love the Brouwer signing, hate Bollig and am kinda "meh" about Engelland. Pretty sure a lot of fans have very different feelings about those 3 players.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The joke's getting well used, but I don't need a hero chart to tell me Frolik is a much better player than Brouwer.

But I'm glad you're more interested in creating an argument than a discussion.

The thing is it's too narrow a view to say Frolik is outright a better player. Means you are putting the emphasis on advanced shooting metrics but not the overall game.

They are actually pretty equal when it comes down to it - Frolik better by advanced metrics, Brouwer more physical.

Over the last 3 seasons:

Brouwer: 0.51 PPG
Frolik:0.51 PPG

Brouwer: 0.26 GPG
Frolik: 0.22 GPG


Brouwer: 1.8 Shots Per Game
Frolik: 2.4 Shots Per Game

Brouwer: 17:47 TOI
Frolik: 16:43 TOI

Brouwer: 1:54 SH TOI
Frolik: 1:31 SH TOI

Brouwer: 2.5 Hits/GP
Frolik: 0.7 Hits/GP

Brouwer: +7
Frolik: +13

Brouwer: 118 Takeaways
Frolik: 148 Takeaways

Really the difference in advanced metrics all comes down to shot generation, they are pretty equal at shot suppression.

Brouwer: 53.59 Corsi For Per 60
Frolik: 61.76 Corsi For Per 60

Brouwer: 54.75 Corsi Against Per 60
Frolik: 54.20 Corsi Against Per 60

Brouwer: 2.17 Goals For Per 60
Frolik: 2.68 Goals For Per 60

Brouwer: 1.93 Goals Against Per 60
Frolik: 2.44 Goals Against Per 60

Interesting that both actually have identical + 0.24 Goals Per 60 Outcomes when they are on the ice - so in the end they are pretty close to equal. Both players are really similar when it comes to zone starts, & quality of competition metrics as well.

I get some of the concerns with the Brouwer signing due to his age but really he is a similar quality of player to Frolik - and the same concerns should probably be had with him as well. If we could find a way to get rid of Stajan it would all be much better - then we would have Frolik, Brouwer, & Backlund as our 3 veteran forwards and I would be fine with that.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Red

What's your solution?

Go after a legitimate top line forward. Even if you have to overpay for an Okposo, you're getting an impact player. Or swing a trade or offersheet for a Toffoli-type on a team strapped against the cap. There are always solutions. And sometimes they won't bring the exact mix in one package that you're getting in UFA, but that doesn't mean you can't get a similar mix with multiple players. Would a Ferland-Bennett-Palmieri line really be lacking anything? No Palmieri is nothing like Brouwer as a player but that doesn't mean the line can't function similarily.

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Basically your post completely failed when you started to compare the value we get from players signed as RFAs and players on ELCs to players signed as UFA. They are basically non-comparable players in terms of the value you get from their contracts.

My point is that your UFA contracts should be your core players and your depth players, and everything in the middle is necessarily your RFA contracts. You have flexibility for one or two middling UFAs (A #4D and a forward) but not so many (Stajan, Frolik, Brouwer, and whomever replaces Engelland/Wideman's cap hit as the long term #4D spot next off-season) that your salary structure lacks the flexibility to jump into the elite tier by adding a core piece.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Nothing has been 'missed' by most posters - you are simply over-reacting and exaggerating the impact of Brouwer's salary.

..


But don't sit here and try and tell us we're all missing anything.

This post:

Originally Posted by btimbit

I'm convinced a lot of people don't actually know who Troy Brouwer is. This isn't some fourth liner cashing in on his time with a good team that inflated his stats.

and a few others like it sprinked throughout the thread are certainly missing that no one is trashing the player in isolation. Of course anyone negative on the contract has to be an idiot who's never seen the guy play and must have "bad hockey knowledge" who "only relies on charts" though, right? Because that's the picture being painted by some - if you're not excited about paying a notable portion of the salary cap for a guy with #WARRIORINTANGIBLES you must be ignorant of who he is and what he brings.

[dash_pinched]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Take a look at the post I was responding to and tell me the correct course of action.

Well, here's the thing, HERO charts and other advanced analytical statistics are a helpful tool, but in my opinion are still far from providing the complete story. As far as the signing of Brouwer is concerned, I'm in the camp that thinks is a good signing, I would have preferred it at about 500 grand cheaper, but that's the cost of doing business of July 1st.

Also, how many times did we hear last season that the Flames were soft and lacked the necessary pushback? I'm hoping Brouwer can help provide that missing ingredient to the Flames roster. The general consensus amongst media pundits is they liked the Brouwer signing, heck even Ray Ferraro approved of it and he's a guy who generally doesn't have very nice things to say about the Flames.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by dash_pinched

Well, here's the thing, HERO charts and other advanced analytical statistics are a helpful tool, but in my opinion are still far from providing the complete story. As far as the signing of Brouwer is concerned, I'm in the camp that thinks is a good signing, I would have preferred it at about 500 grand cheaper, but that's the cost of doing business of July 1st.

Also, how many times did we hear last season that the Flames were soft and lacked the necessary pushback? I'm hoping Brouwer can help provide that missing ingredient to the Flames roster. The general consensus amongst media pundits is they liked the Brouwer signing, heck even Ray Ferraro approved of it and he's a guy who generally doesn't have very nice things to say about the Flames.

I never said hero charts provide the whole story (puckluck brought up hero charts, to insult me). No single stat, tool, or observation tells the whole story. I like to believe that I try to use everything that is available to me as a fan to evaluate players. Hero charts are a tool and nothing more. I haven't used them in any other way.

[Red]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Go after a legitimate top line forward. Even if you have to overpay for an Okposo, you're getting an impact player. Or swing a trade or offersheet for a Toffoli-type on a team strapped against the cap. There are always solutions. And sometimes they won't bring the exact mix in one package that you're getting in UFA, but that doesn't mean you can't get a similar mix with multiple players. Would a Ferland-Bennett-Palmieri line really be lacking anything? No Palmieri is nothing like Brouwer as a player but that doesn't mean the line can't function similarily.



My point is that your UFA contracts should be your core players and your depth players, and everything in the middle is necessarily your RFA contracts. You have flexibility for one or two middling UFAs (A #4D and a forward) but not so many (Stajan, Frolik, Brouwer, and whomever replaces Engelland/Wideman's cap hit as the long term #4D spot next off-season) that your salary structure lacks the flexibility to jump into the elite tier by adding a core piece.



This post:



and a few others like it sprinked throughout the thread are certainly missing that no one is trashing the player in isolation. Of course anyone negative on the contract has to be an idiot who's never seen the guy play and must have "bad hockey knowledge" who "only relies on charts" though, right? Because that's the picture being painted by some - if you're not excited about paying a notable portion of the salary cap for a guy with #WARRIORINTANGIBLES you must be ignorant of who he is and what he brings.

That's a good plan to avoid those cap issues you are so afraid Brouwer creates.

[Jetfire]

I'm absolutely floored by some of the negative posts here, I feel Brouwer's contract is quite fair, he's carried a reputation his whole career as a consistent, durable, high teens-low 20s goal scorer who works his butt off every shift, and to speak for that, he made himself a fan favorite in every city he's played in thus far, which I expect to continue in Calgary. Give him a fair shake, he'll win you over.

[Enoch Root]

Okposo impactful?

Similar goals, doesn't bring anything else.

I think that it is highly probably that the Okposo signing will be the burdensome one between the two.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

An offer sheet isn't a solution. First off, didn't Burke make mention that the organization would never use them? And even if they did, how often do they work? And not to mention, they're a great way to royally tick off other GMs you're trying to do business with every day. And Brouwer cost the team nothing but his salary, offer sheets (if you are successful) could cost the team dearly. No thanks.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Okposo impactful?

Similar goals, doesn't bring anything else.

I think that it is highly probably that the Okposo signing will be the burdensome one between the two.

Not a fan of this Brouwer deal but at least if he's not scoring he can contribute in other ways. Okposo is totally useless if he isn't scoring. That deal may turn out to be the worst of all the July 1st deals.

[Red]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

An offer sheet isn't a solution. First off, didn't Burke make mention that the organization would never use them? And even if they did, how often do they work? And not to mention, they're a great way to royally tick off other GMs you're trying to do business with every day. And Brouwer cost the team nothing but his salary, offer sheets (if you are successful) could cost the team dearly. No thanks.

Oh come on...everyone knows that the best way to shop for impact players on a shoestring budget is to grossly overpay a player via an offer sheet. Your further savings are made when you don't have to pay the prospects you would have had you not lost the draft pics in the process. Perfect plan, but getting those RFAs of our own would be tough. I am sure he has a plan equally as good as this one though.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Kyle Okposo or an offer sheet are GrantedEV's alternatives?

Don't often say something like this, but glad that guy isn't running the Flames. Terrible idea after terrible idea built upon a foundation of questionable analysis.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Not a fan of this Brouwer deal but at least if he's not scoring he can contribute in other ways. Okposo is totally useless if he isn't scoring. That deal may turn out to be the worst of all the July 1st deals.

Okoposo isn't even what I'd label an impactful forward either. He's a passenger.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

An offer sheet isn't a solution. First off, didn't Burke make mention that the organization would never use them? And even if they did, how often do they work? And not to mention, they're a great way to royally tick off other GMs you're trying to do business with every day. And Brouwer cost the team nothing but his salary, offer sheets (if you are successful) could cost the team dearly. No thanks.

Don't take the idea of an offer sheet literally. RFAs are traded yearly by teams strapped for cap space or budget for less or roughly equal to their offer sheet value - just because they weren't officially offersheeted doesn't mean the trades weren't essentially the equivalent of one. How did the Capitals acquire Troy Brouwer in the first place six years ago? A trade while he was an RFA. Let's not act like our Dougie Hamilton acquisition doesn't fall into the same category.

[steveo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Don't take the idea of an offer sheet literally. RFAs are traded yearly by teams strapped for cap space or budget for less or roughly equal to their offer sheet value - just because they weren't officially offersheeted doesn't mean the trades weren't essentially the equivalent of one. How did the Capitals acquire Troy Brouwer in the first place six years ago? A trade while he was an RFA. Let's not act like our Dougie Hamilton acquisition doesn't fall into the same category.

If you don't want them to take it literally, say what you mean the first time.