The Democratic Presidential Nomination 2020

[blankall]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Or...Bernie is a Socialist, the American populace outside some Millennials is anti-socialism, Trump will play socialism to the hilt. Bernie will go nuts, average people will get scared. Dems lose.

He’s a bad candidate if you want to win an election, but really outside Biden who do they have who could win?

Bernie is no more a socialist than Obama was.

[Red Slinger]

If Bernie is a Socialist, everyone in Congress is a Socialist with the exception of some hard core Libertarians. All of them believe in some social programs funded by taxpayers for the benefit of all. It's just a matter of how much, which programs and how it's paid for.

Bernie is a Democratic Socialist which essentially means he believes in a free market economy but one with more regulations, taxes and additional social programs than most of the more centrist or right politicians.

If you were to place the Democratic Presidential candidates in the Canadian political spectrum Bernie would likely somewhere between Liberals and NDP. Warren would be a little closer to the Liberals. Klobuchar would probably be closest to Liberals. Biden and Buttigieg would likely be Conservative. Yang is an outlier that doesn't really fit anywhere and would probably start his own party.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by photon

I'd be worried about running a socialist against Trump too if I were Dems, he'd be a total wildcard. Could pay off huge, could result in a landslide against Dems. No one likes risk.

They already tried the establishment (Clinton) against Trump and lost though. I totally understand why so many left leaning voters don't want a repeat of that and want to give Bernie a shot

[GirlySports]

I think Bernie is left of Singh. Warren is for some reason chasing Sanders (see Carville interview above)

[icecube]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Or...Bernie is a Socialist, the American populace outside some Millennials is anti-socialism, Trump will play socialism to the hilt. Bernie will go nuts, average people will get scared. Dems lose.

He’s a bad candidate if you want to win an election, but really outside Biden who do they have who could win?

No, Dogbert had it right the first time.

Also, Americans are rapidly warming up to more socialist reforms. Wealth inequality and everything that comes along with it (health care, education etc.) are getting worse and people are itching for more equitable systems. Bernie can definitely become president but he will have to contend with the DNC and the mainstream media trying to block him at every turn.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by icecube

Also, Americans are rapidly warming up to more socialist reforms.

Until they see the tax bill. Because whatever else is changing about Americans, I don't see their ferocious resistance to taxation going away any time soon. And you simply can't get the level of public spending Sanders is calling for without substantial tax increases right across the board.

Countries like Denmark and Sweden don't have robust public services because they tax the wealthy and corporations at high rates. They can afford robust public services because they impose high income and sales taxes on everybody. To a level I simply can't imagine Americans tolerating.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

They already tried the establishment (Clinton) against Trump and lost though. I totally understand why so many left leaning voters don't want a repeat of that and want to give Bernie a shot

Hillary frankly ran a bad and disconnected campaign, her campaign strategy was brutal and they frankly ignored the areas that could have turned the election.


I think she just thought that her name brand would push her through, and didn't realize at her peril that the Republican's seriously outworked and out campaigned her and her team.

[peter12]

Not to mention, the United States - just like every other Western country - is right at the front end of the big dying Boomer demographic fiscal crunch. There will be an enormous downward pressure on all social welfare programs as they currently exist.

[PostandIn]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Until they see the tax bill. Because whatever else is changing about Americans, I don't see their ferocious resistance to taxation going away any time soon. And you simply can't get the level of public spending Sanders is calling for without substantial tax increases right across the board.

Countries like Denmark and Sweden don't have robust public services because they tax the wealthy and corporations at high rates. They can afford robust public services because they impose high income and sales taxes on everybody. To a level I simply can't imagine Americans tolerating.

Well, it's really just the rich that aren't tolerating it right now because they aren't being taxed enough. Every other segment is.

Just closing a single loophole that favours corporate executives would save the Treasury $50B.

https://americansfortaxfairness.org/...s-for-ceo-pay/

Further, some high-profile wealthy people are actually imploring governments to pay a more equitable share but, guess what, Republican law makers are deaf.

https://thehustle.co/billionaires-wealth-tax-reform/

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/14/sale...her-taxes.html

Anyone who is honest about the current state of the US tax code knows that it is effectively a legal mechanism to siphon wealth from the the middle and lower classes to the rich. There's no lobbyists in Washington that represent middle class taxpayers. It's a game designed and controlled by the rich for the benefit of the rich.

[Canadianman]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Until they see the tax bill. Because whatever else is changing about Americans, I don't see their ferocious resistance to taxation going away any time soon. And you simply can't get the level of public spending Sanders is calling for without substantial tax increases right across the board.

Countries like Denmark and Sweden don't have robust public services because they tax the wealthy and corporations at high rates. They can afford robust public services because they impose high income and sales taxes on everybody. To a level I simply can't imagine Americans tolerating.

Do you believe any of that?

They both have better and cheaper health care than the US.
They both have robust public services.

The US could have those things if it simply expected its billionaires to pay taxes.

If you could get the lobbyists and Big money out of politics, the citizens of the US would likely start voting in their own self-interest.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Canadianman

Do you believe any of that?

They both have better and cheaper health care than the US.
They both have robust public services.

Yes, they do. But look at the tax regimes of Sweden and Denmark, and then get back to me.

Income taxes are actually much flatter than in the U.S. In the U.S., the top marginal tax rate of 47 per cent kicks in at 8.5 times the average income. In Denmark, the top marginal tax rate of 60 per cent kicks in at only 1.2 times the average income. Huge difference.

Sweden and Denmark have VATs of 25 per cent. Average sales tax in the U.S. is 7 per cent.

If a country wants Scandinavian quality and breadth of public services, it will need to impose Scandinavian levels of taxation. I don't see what's controversial or difficult to understand about that.

https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-sweden.pdf

https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandi...ment-spending/

[afc wimbledon]

It doesn't matter whether Bernie is a socialist or not, he is utterly unelectable, that's the problem.

[Senator Clay Davis]

With Bernie as nominee a state like Florida becomes 100% out of play for the Dems. And we know that backwards ass place is normally 50/50 as to who wins it, and it's a pretty important state (arguably the most important) from a numbers perspective. So to basically say "Yeah it's gone" when it shouldn't be is a tough sell. Bernie as nominee makes far more sense if it was straight popular vote, but in the electoral college it's a whole lot tougher to see any path to victory for the Dems.

[Sylvanfan]

I really have to question if nominating a guy who's going to turn 79 before this election, will really appeal to the general population.
I mean what are the chances that people will want to elect an 83 year old to a second term?

As much as Baby Boomers make up the largest cohort demographically, is another old politician really going to have enough appeal? I mean some of these top Democrats really are Dinosaurs, in Sanders, Biden, Warren.

Obama was under 50 when he first was elected to office, and Clinton had just turned 50. Both of them were two term presidents..probably a bit too simplistic, but I think psychologically people do have their prejudices when selecting someone to do that job.

This really is an election where they can only lose it...and they look like they are really good at finding ways to do this.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

With Bernie as nominee a state like Florida becomes 100% out of play for the Dems. And we know that backwards ass place is normally 50/50 as to who wins it, and it's a pretty important state (arguably the most important) from a numbers perspective. So to basically say "Yeah it's gone" when it shouldn't be is a tough sell. Bernie as nominee makes far more sense if it was straight popular vote, but in the electoral college it's a whole lot tougher to see any path to victory for the Dems.

A Bernie v Trump electoral college map could have all sorts of changes.

You're right, Florida is lost, NC is lost, Arizona and Nevada are gone, states that have gone reliably blue like Virginia, Colorado, and New Mexico are suddenly back in play. The rust belt is probably locked up, but that is really the only gain.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

If Bernie is a Socialist, everyone in Congress is a Socialist with the exception of some hard core Libertarians. All of them believe in some social programs funded by taxpayers for the benefit of all. It's just a matter of how much, which programs and how it's paid for.

Bernie is a Democratic Socialist which essentially means he believes in a free market economy but one with more regulations, taxes and additional social programs than most of the more centrist or right politicians.

If you were to place the Democratic Presidential candidates in the Canadian political spectrum Bernie would likely somewhere between Liberals and NDP. Warren would be a little closer to the Liberals. Klobuchar would probably be closest to Liberals. Biden and Buttigieg would likely be Conservative. Yang is an outlier that doesn't really fit anywhere and would probably start his own party.

Pretty much correct I think though I would a bit more differentiation in and say likes of Biden would be a center-right conservative. Buttigieg is actually pretty progressive in his policies...just not as progressive as Warren or Sanders. He’s like the intermediate step you’d take on the way to democratic socialism.

I wish he had far more experience but I think he would energize the younger base of the dems pretty effectively if he was able to make nice with Sanders as Warren.

[Bunk]

Mayor Pete's been winning the Iowa caucus for three days going now. Does it help or hurt his bump that the results are constantly in the news all week, or does the process story about the debacle drown that out?

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by icecube

No, Dogbert had it right the first time.

Also, Americans are rapidly warming up to more socialist reforms. Wealth inequality and everything that comes along with it (health care, education etc.) are getting worse and people are itching for more equitable systems. Bernie can definitely become president but he will have to contend with the DNC and the mainstream media trying to block him at every turn.

Sure. Believe what you will. Here is a opinion I share that is close to mine and authored by a leftist writer.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...socialism.html

[afc wimbledon]

The problem with the far left or right is you live in a bubble, only dealing with people who share your views so you end up being certain that everyone agrees with you about universal healthcare or disenfranchising and deporting every latino.

[HockeyIlliterate]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Mayor Pete's been winning the Iowa caucus for three days going now. Does it help or hurt his bump that the results are constantly in the news all week, or does the process story about the debacle drown that out?

The latter.

Which is both hurting Sanders (because he came in second) and helping Biden (because he came in 4th or worse) tremendously.