*SPOILER DISCUSSION* Star Wars The Force Awakens *POST HERE AFTER SEEING THE MOVIE*

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MattyC

What you're saying makes sense for sure. But doesnt the same logic mean that he should have been able to sense the Grandmaster of the Jedi, Yoda? It's most powerful warrior in Kenobi? You'd think he would have scanned the Force for those two specifically, no?

Palpatines great evil was playing both sides and creating a galactic-wide civil-war purely so he could end up as the Emperor. It's not far fetched that he could have been as blinded by his need for power as Plageuis was by his need for immortality.

Also, perhaps Plageuis was able to become one with the force ala the Jedi, and that WAS his immortality. And therefore, Palpatine may have not been able to sense him.

One thing that was clear in the Prequels was that the Dark Side of the Force clouded the ability for the Jedi to sense someone like Palpatine, however Palpatine didn't seem to have that problem when he felt the movement of Anakin to the Dark Side.

"I can feel your anger, it gives you focus, makes you powerful"

Later on we saw that with the rise of the Lightside of the Force Palpatines ability to view the Force was compromised, he couldn't see the betrayal of Vader coming, and physically had to ask Vader about his loyalties when it came to his son.

You have a valid point about Yoda and Kenobi, but they were maybe shielded by the affect of the Light Side on the Darkside, I feel that Palpatine because he was so attuned to the Darkside (ROTS novel described him as an embodiment of the Darks Side) would have felt the dilution of the Darkside of the Force to another Darkside user (plageuis).

Palpatine was blinded in the later part of his life, because the Lighside of the Force fogged the Darkside, similar to how the Darkside of the Force clouded the ability of the Jedi to use the Light side.

As for the ghost thing, the prevalling feeling was that the Sith who were obsessed with power and holding onto it would never surrender to death or letting go of their physical self to become a force ghost. Its a selfless act based in sacrifice to become one with the force, the giving up of Self, which a Sith would never do. Instead they tended to rely on medical science to preserve their lives. Kenobi gave up his self and sacrificed himself because he felt he would become more powerful as a guide for Luke. Yoda was old and just gave up on living, thus releasing Self, but he wasn't a ghost guide, but showed up in the end.

Vader when he died sacrificed himself and gave up on self and became a ghost. Qui-Gon was willing to let go, and asked Obi-Wan to take his mantle and train Anakin, and he became a ghost if TCW was to be believed, however that he might have been an illusion created by the Father.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

As for the ghost thing, the prevalling feeling was that the Sith who were obsessed with power and holding onto it would never surrender to death or letting go of their physical self to become a force ghost. Its a selfless act based in sacrifice to become one with the force, the giving up of Self, which a Sith would never do. Instead they tended to rely on medical science to preserve their lives. Kenobi gave up his self and sacrificed himself because he felt he would become more powerful as a guide for Luke. Yoda was old and just gave up on living, thus releasing Self, but he wasn't a ghost guide, but showed up in the end.

Maybe this is exactly what Plageius DID do. I'll pre-face this by saying I know nothing of the EU (although not canon) and have only just started Clone Wars, so I don't have much actual universe knowledge outside of the movies.

Back when Plageuis first came into being, the force wouldn't have been divided, right? He would have had plenty of access to Jedi knowledge and training techniques and may have discovered the Force Ghost ability. Perhaps he DID sacrifice himself so that Palpatine could rise, bring about the age of the Sith again, so that Plageuis could return to galaxy ruled by the Sith. Then through some sick twist on the Light-side Ghost, Plageuis can reanimate by taking a host body somehow.

This is just my own imagination, but I would be cool with that. I don't think it takes away from Palpatine, as Plageuis would have recognized that it was Palpatine, not himself, who would bring about the rise of the Sith. And could only do so upon his sacrifice.

[CaptainCrunch]

I had to laugh I was having a conversation with a buddy after he saw TFA and we talked about the characters and came up with the following

Every young boy wants to be Luke
Every early teenager wants to be Han
Every high school boy wants to be Vader
Every Polic-sci student wants to be Palpatine

Every girl wants to be Leia
None of them want to be Padme.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I had to laugh I was having a conversation with a buddy after he saw TFA and we talked about the characters and came up with the following

Every young boy wants to be Luke
Every early teenager wants to be Han
Every high school boy wants to be Vader
Every Polic-sci student wants to be Palpatine

Every girl wants to be Leia
None of them want to be Padme.

Which is weird, becuse Padme wasn't "just" only a politician, she was an adventurer as well. She constantly broke ranks leaving her double in place while she galavanted around Tattoine picking up young kids or rushing off o Geonosis to save Obi-Wan.

[Finger Cookin]

Hopefully Snoke is a completely new character. Like Poe Dameron, and Kylo Ren, and Finn, and Rey, and Captain Phasma, and General Hux.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Maybe this is exactly what Plageius DID do. I'll pre-face this by saying I know nothing of the EU (although not canon) and have only just started Clone Wars, so I don't have much actual universe knowledge outside of the movies.

Back when Plageuis first came into being, the force wouldn't have been divided, right? He would have had plenty of access to Jedi knowledge and training techniques and may have discovered the Force Ghost ability. Perhaps he DID sacrifice himself so that Palpatine could rise, bring about the age of the Sith again, so that Plageuis could return to galaxy ruled by the Sith. Then through some sick twist on the Light-side Ghost, Plageuis can reanimate by taking a host body somehow.

This is just my own imagination, but I would be cool with that. I don't think it takes away from Palpatine, as Plageuis would have recognized that it was Palpatine, not himself, who would bring about the rise of the Sith. And could only do so upon his sacrifice.

Not hammering on you this is a great conversation. But Plageuis doing that would go against the whole concept of the rule of two.

Two there are no more, no less, one to embody power and one to crave it.

The reason why the Apprentice needs to kill the Master is to basically prove that he has surpassed his master in terms of power and learning. For Plageuis to sacrifice himself would be even worse for making Palpatine look weak.

A Sith spends his hole life gathering power and learning to himself, a Master will share this information with his apprentice but not willingly or easily, forcing the Apprentice to strive and even surpass his master to the point where the Master no longer has anything to offer. Then the final test is killing your master, taking on his mantle and then training a new apprentice who will eventually get stronger.

This is so to speak the way of the Sith and how they evolved to become more powerful then even Yoda.

When Yoda was fighting Palpatine in the senate he came to the realization (ROTJ novelization) that he had been preparing to fight the Sith from a thousand years ago, and they had evolved and become more powerful and at the end of the day Yoda just didn't have it.

On top of that Yoda realized that Obi-Wan who was very powerful in the Force, would have gotten crushed by a true Sith Lord and that's why he sent him after Vader who hadn't received any Sith training to that point and was between worlds.

Anyways going back to your point, I can't see where Plageuis would have surrendered or sacrificed his power for his apprentice, he would have wanted Sidious to seize the mantle and prove that he was powerful enough to become the Sith Lord.

Also in the book Plageuis (EU) he mused and then Palpatine mused later that Plageuis was working towards immortality and wouldn't need an apprentice, that's one of the motivators on why Palpatine moved to kill him before he discovered the secret, thus giving the big lie.

Also in EU they mused that the one who had discovered the secret was a Sith named Darth Gravid and the secret was lost when Gravid turned to the lightside and destroyed all knowledge of immortality.

[Hack&Lube]

I think they are going to toss all the Plagueis and rule of two stuff. They'll have some similar concepts as already demonstrated, but under their own banner and rules.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Not hammering on you this is a great conversation. But Plageuis doing that would go against the whole concept of the rule of two.

Two there are no more, no less, one to embody power and one to crave it.

The reason why the Apprentice needs to kill the Master is to basically prove that he has surpassed his master in terms of power and learning. For Plageuis to sacrifice himself would be even worse for making Palpatine look weak.

A Sith spends his hole life gathering power and learning to himself, a Master will share this information with his apprentice but not willingly or easily, forcing the Apprentice to strive and even surpass his master to the point where the Master no longer has anything to offer. Then the final test is killing your master, taking on his mantle and then training a new apprentice who will eventually get stronger.

This is so to speak the way of the Sith and how they evolved to become more powerful then even Yoda.

When Yoda was fighting Palpatine in the senate he came to the realization (ROTJ novelization) that he had been preparing to fight the Sith from a thousand years ago, and they had evolved and become more powerful and at the end of the day Yoda just didn't have it.

On top of that Yoda realized that Obi-Wan who was very powerful in the Force, would have gotten crushed by a true Sith Lord and that's why he sent him after Vader who hadn't received any Sith training to that point and was between worlds.

Anyways going back to your point, I can't see where Plageuis would have surrendered or sacrificed his power for his apprentice, he would have wanted Sidious to seize the mantle and prove that he was powerful enough to become the Sith Lord.

Also in the book Plageuis (EU) he mused and then Palpatine mused later that Plageuis was working towards immortality and wouldn't need an apprentice, that's one of the motivators on why Palpatine moved to kill him before he discovered the secret, thus giving the big lie.

Also in EU they mused that the one who had discovered the secret was a Sith named Darth Gravid and the secret was lost when Gravid turned to the lightside and destroyed all knowledge of immortality.

All good points, however I would say:

- I think you're clinging to the Rule of Two too much, as I think it is pretty obvious that both sides have the need to evolve and change (the Sith on their rule, and the Jedi on their discipline).

- If Plageuis did end up as a Force ghost, I'm not sure that he would qualify as a Sith under the rule of two, especially if his presence was unknown to other Dark Force users, as it is not a power they are in tune with.

- The rules for Dark Force ghost could be different than that of Light Force ghosts (is there any precedent? If not, they could explain it however they want).

- Just because Plageuis may have sacrificed himself for the sake of immortality, doesn't mean it was selfless, or needed him to gift his death to Palpatine in any way. Maybe the sacrifice can be seen as him purposely training an apprentice that so desired ultimate power that it was inevitable that he would kill Plageuis. And Plageuis' foresight to this, and to it's strengthening impact on the Sith, made it a sacrifice for the Dark Side. That doesn't mean that he "let" Palpatine kill him, just purposely made him strong enough so that he could.

Again, I think you're getting bogged down in what has been established as the traditions of each side. They have changed dramatically, even over the course of prequels and the OT. There are so many ways to interpret all the things that are said by each side, that Abrams and Co. can pretty much add whatever lore they want to it, as long as they have feasible reasons for doing so (IE NOT midichlorins). Seeing as the Sith didn't always operate with the Rule of Two, I don't see why they would have to going forward.

[zukes]

I like Matty C.'s idea of Plagueis.

I also like the CC's idea of Kanaan or Ezra.

Both very plausible.

[MrMastodonFarm]

I'm glad JJ Abrams and company decided to throw away all the non-movie stuff. Reading some of the in-depth speculation posts in this thread makes my head spin.

[AltaGuy]

Because I like theories too, here are mine on the mysteries:

Snoke - I think he probably will end up being Plagueis. I think it will be something kind of simple along the lines of that he went into exile knowing how powerful his apprentice was and had to hide out for many years just healing and waiting. Maybe Palpatine didn't sense him because he just wasn't doing anything, not using the force aside from healing himself slowly from whatever wounds/poisoning/damage he suffered.

I think Rey will not be related by blood to the Skywalkers or Solos. I think she was saved by Luke as a young girl, maybe as a young Padawan at his school, and I think she will be part of the whole "balance to the force" prophecy of Anakin. Maybe the power - or potential power - of Anakin went to her when she was born.

Essentially, I think she will be the heir to Anakin as a recipient of an enormous affinity to the force under mysterious circumstances from birth. But I think that - like Anakin - she comes from nothing and nobody significant.

If I had to flesh it out more, I would guess that Luke discovered her and either began training her or had her marked for something special as a young child. Somewhere along the way Ren also meets her when he is an adolescent and is jealous of the innate power she possesses despite not coming from his distinguished family. He is also jealous of the attention Luke pays her over him.

Basically, I think Rey is a new Anakin, and Luke is familiar with her already, but is also fearful, knowing what became of his father under the heavy burden of being the Chosen One or whatever.

[FireGilbert]

Finally saw it on a huge ass IMAX. It was a great experience, I definitely felt like I was a part of the movie. I am confident to say that JJ Abrams has saved Star Wars from the horrible prequels (even III sucked). The acting, cinematography, pacing, and music was superb and I was engaged the entire time. I also enjoyed bringing back practical effects although this had the unfortunate result and making the few CGI scenes look out of place.

I guess I have the same criticisms as others that the star killer plot was a repeat of two other movies and a few minutes could have been spent explaining politics, the light sabre, and fleshing out some of the minor characters like Snoke, Phasma, and Poe.

Also, as far as 2015 movie series reboots go it was no Mad Max but was much better than Jurassic World.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I think they are going to toss all the Plagueis and rule of two stuff. They'll have some similar concepts as already demonstrated, but under their own banner and rules.

I think what I would like to see is that they either conquered death by some kind of reincarnation or possession. I would buy that Anakin, and later Rey, were results of that.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Does anyone know how long it will remain in Imax?

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I think what I would like to see is that they either conquered death by some kind of reincarnation or possession. I would buy that Anakin, and later Rey, were results of that.

Ooo - that'd be kind of cool! If Anakin were some sort of revenge project by Plagueis on Palpatine.

[Itse]

I'm pretty sure I literally could not care less about "Darth Plagueis". He's barely mentioned in one bad prequel movie in a scene that's not very interesting. There would be nothing "cool" about Snoke being Plaguesis (or what ever that name is).

It's also one of the worst sith names I've heard. Darth Evilisis taken already?

I also would much prefer that the dark side wasn't embodied by just another Sith lord emperor again. Please make it something different.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Ooo - that'd be kind of cool! If Anakin were some sort of revenge project by Plagueis on Palpatine.

At one point in the prequels I thought Anakin was created by Plagueis. They first stated in the prequels that Anakin was conceived by the Force and then Palpatine stated that Plagueis could create life so I put 2 and 2 together.

[GGG]

I like the idea that Ren saved Rey when he was converting to the dark side and he was the one that decided to hide her rather than kill her. It kinda of fits with him fighting the light and being angry at his weakness. And like Vader compassion in a weak moment leads to being overthrown.

[ComixZone]

Seeing it for a 3rd time this Friday. Excited.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

At one point in the prequels I though Anakin was created by Plagueis. They first stated in the prequels that Anakin was conceived by the Force and then Palpatine stated that Plagueis could create life so I put 2 and 2 together.

In the Plageuis book I liked their approach, he was terrified that Anakin was a creation by the force in response to him and Palpatine pouring more darkness into the balance of the Force. He felt that Anakin was the Forces attempt to balance the dark and the light.

The scene where he is watching Anakin arriving on Coruscant for the first time was very well written because Plageuis felt that the Grand Plan of the Sith was in jeopardy because of the boy.