Israel declares war on Hamas

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel...215629?cmp=rss


Murder, terrorism, genocide...pick your descriptor. Go ahead and justify it in your head if you can. I know some here will.

Ah, it seems they are going with "whoops, our bad."

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Ah, it seems they are going with "whoops, our bad."

With the US asking them to be a bit more careful.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

So, I am still learning lots about the history of this area and the history of the conflict.

Was the land Israel is on stolen?

I don't think that there is a satisfying answer to this question. Though these days it is in vogue for historians to apply the methodological lens of Settler Colonialism.

Though not comprehensive, It tries to tie together similar and simultaneous systems and processes that occur around the world.

I do not find it is to be a perfect tool, but it is a useful one in these circumstances where there are overlapping conflicts and interpretations of place and territory. Indeed some historians would argue that you can not understand the Israel and Palestine conflict without first understanding the systems that Europe uses with respect legitimizing to knowledge/power.

Just to try and stay totally neutral, it would say that anyone who speaks in absolutes on the topic should not be trusted.

[PsYcNeT]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1795108612777415143

https://twitter.com/user/status/1795130464497283121

On Step 4 at the moment

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Yes.

What's changed your opinion? It can't have been the failure of Israel to provide any evidence for their fabricated allegations that you got so giddy about?

Because you've had a hate on for UNRWA and its work long before the Israeli lies.

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

With that being said, I think Canada should have cut funding before that information came out. Plenty of other reasons to cut funding.

What plenty of other reasons? They feed people? Shelter people? Provide medical assistance?

And what's changed? Now you're saying you're ok with Canada funding UNRWA but a while back you maintained that even before "that information" (lol) there are plenty of reasons to cut funding to them?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

[On Step 4 at the moment

Paging Nage Waza to step 7.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Ah, it seems they are going with "whoops, our bad."

What do you expect anyone to say?

Already posted a few pages back that I don't believe that targeted strikes to kill 1-2 Hamas members when there is a risk of civilian casualties is really accomplishing anything.

Outside of the terrible tragedy that keeps resulting, it also creates what the US started to refer to as insurgent math in Afghanistan / Iraq. -2 = 10. For every 2 'insurgents' that were killed, 10 more were born.

But from a military perspective, the US and others have literally been carrying out the same type of warfare for close to 20 years. This is what happens when terrorists hide among civilians. Also, these same terrorists were literally launching rockets from the same areas hours before. Sure didn't see you complain then about how terrible that is. But when Israel responds, you are quick to point out how terrible it is. Which I actually agree with, but I sure wonder how you think Israel should now deal with what is very obviously a pretty substantial area from which Hamas is operating.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

What do you expect anyone to say?

Already posted a few pages back that I don't believe that targeted strikes to kill 1-2 Hamas members when there is a risk of civilian casualties is really accomplishing anything.

Outside of the terrible tragedy that keeps resulting, it also creates what the US started to refer to as insurgent math in Afghanistan / Iraq. -2 = 10. For every 2 'insurgents' that were killed, 10 more were born.

But from a military perspective, the US and others have literally been carrying out the same type of warfare for close to 20 years. This is what happens when terrorists hide among civilians. Also, these same terrorists were literally launching rockets from the same areas hours before. Sure didn't see you complain then about how terrible that is. But when Israel responds, you are quick to point out how terrible it is. Which I actually agree with, but I sure wonder how you think Israel should now deal with what is very obviously a pretty substantial area from which Hamas is operating.

I've never claimed to have a solution to the problems Israel has contributed to over decades. I do know killing innocent civilians and terrorizing them, and saying "whoops, our bad" occasionally is in no way going to result in the outcome they would like. It's also inhumane. So why do it?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I've never claimed to have a solution to the problems Israel has contributed to over decades. I do know killing innocent civilians and terrorizing them, and saying "whoops, our bad" occasionally is in no way going to result in the outcome they would like. It's also inhumane. So why do it?

I agree, these types of attacks where civilians are killed is just likely to result in more Hamas recruitment and not in any accomplishments that bode well for long-term security of Israel, and especially not for the long-term security & safety of the people caught in these camps with nowhere to go.

So there definitely does need to be a different strategy here. Perhaps one where the funding for Hamas is stopped? Where the countries in the area facilitating the transfer of military resources into Gaza actually you know stop doing that?

Just strange how people don't understand that Israel is not going to stop until Hamas is gone. And to think that they should stop fighting back against what were hours before these airstrikes a massive barrage of rocket attacks from the same area is rather ignorant.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Bagor

What's changed your opinion? It can't have been the failure of Israel to provide any evidence for their fabricated allegations that you got so giddy about?

Because you've had a hate on for UNRWA and its work long before the Israeli lies.


What plenty of other reasons? They feed people? Shelter people? Provide medical assistance?

And what's changed? Now you're saying you're ok with Canada funding UNRWA but a while back you maintained that even before "that information" (lol) there are plenty of reasons to cut funding to them?

I read that that the Canadian government was aware of UNRWA links to Hamas years ago. That’s why I said we should have cut funding a long time ago.

I am ok with funding them now, because it is probably one of the only ways Palestinians get fed.

After the war is over and Gaza is able to stand on its own two feet, we need to have a closer look at UNWRA. If there are ties to Hamas (if Hamas is still there), then no funding. If there are no ties, I’m ok with continuing to fund.

But, as I said, for today - people need food.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I read that that the Canadian government was aware of UNRWA links to Hamas years ago. That’s why I said we should have cut funding a long time ago.

Where was this reported? What links to Hamas? And if they were aware of these links surely they would have ceased funding then?
Sounds like you're making stuff up now.

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

After the war is over and Gaza is able to stand on its own two feet, we need to have a closer look at UNWRA. If there are ties to Hamas (if Hamas is still there), then no funding. If there are no ties, I’m ok with continuing to fund.

Haven't they just finished heavily sctutizing them resulting in the Colonna report?
You have a problem with that report?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I read that that the Canadian government was aware of UNRWA links to Hamas years ago. That’s why I said we should have cut funding a long time ago.

I am ok with funding them now, because it is probably one of the only ways Palestinians get fed.

After the war is over and Gaza is able to stand on its own two feet, we need to have a closer look at UNWRA. If there are ties to Hamas (if Hamas is still there), then no funding. If there are no ties, I’m ok with continuing to fund.

But, as I said, for today - people need food.

This is literally not true.

There are quite a few other agencies in Gaza doing great work. Even those that get bombed by Israel and literally just go back to work the next day.

The UNRWA should have been defunded a long time ago.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Azure

This is literally not true.

There are quite a few other agencies in Gaza doing great work. Even those that get bombed by Israel and literally just go back to work the next day.

The UNRWA should have been defunded a long time ago.

lol

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

So, I am still learning lots about the history of this area and the history of the conflict.

Was the land Israel is on stolen?

The land Israel is on was not stolen, unless you include ancient Judea/Israel, which was stolen from the Jews by multiple groups over the years. The creation of the Israel included the creation of multiple Muslim nations.

Modern Israel was created upon the break up of the Ottoman empire, and multiple states were created, including states like Syria, Jordan, Egypt and many others. The Ottoman Empire was the most recent colonial force which spread Islam far west, including much of Northern Africa, where it is still in conflict.

Israel is the only country these posters fight against, ignoring other countries created at that time that have terrible human rights and massive death counts. Israel is the bright light out of them, despite all the nonsense hate these guys preach here.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Where was this reported? What links to Hamas? And if they were aware of these links surely they would have ceased funding then?
Sounds like you're making stuff up now.

UN Watch has reported extensively on this subject. Hamas has 100% infiltrated UNRWA and a significant portion of those working for UNRWA are Hamas sympathizers. Another generation of terror seems to be the goal for many of this terrible organization.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Azure

But from a military perspective, the US and others have literally been carrying out the same type of warfare for close to 20 years. This is what happens when terrorists hide among civilians. Also, these same terrorists were literally launching rockets from the same areas hours before. Sure didn't see you complain then about how terrible that is. But when Israel responds, you are quick to point out how terrible it is. Which I actually agree with, but I sure wonder how you think Israel should now deal with what is very obviously a pretty substantial area from which Hamas is operating.

The scale is completely different. Based on independent estimates, the US drone strike program is estimated to have killed up to 2,000 civilians in 14 years. Even taking the most charitable casualty statistics in this current conflict, Israel is killing that many civilians each month.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by opendoor

The scale is completely different. Based on independent estimates, the US drone strike program is estimated to have killed up to 2,000 civilians in 14 years. Even taking the most charitable casualty statistics in this current conflict, Israel is killing that many civilians each month.

Were those civilians prevented from leaving their homes by Hamas or another terror group as is the case in Gaza?

This war sucks but Hamas is responsible for all of this. Israel is not a big enough nation to absorb losses by going building to building. The citizens at some point have to see their biggest issue is Hamas, but that is unlikely with 20 years of Hamas rule and education.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

UN Watch has reported extensively on this subject. Hamas has 100% infiltrated UNRWA and a significant portion of those working for UNRWA are Hamas sympathizers. Another generation of terror seems to be the goal for many of this terrible organization.

Of course we could rely on you to post about the so called reportings of an organisation that is considered nothing more than an Israeli lobby group.

And why did the independent Collona investigation and subsequent report make no mention or take seriously these "extensive" reports? Because they didn't take them seriously?

And yes. A terrible organization. An organization that tries to feed, clothe and shelter a traumatized population. I can see how you must hate them.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

This war sucks but Hamas is responsible for all of this.

WTF is wrong with you?

Are you that far indoctrinated that you can't see how the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians, and the deliberate starvation of a whole population could be directly attributed to Israel?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

https://twitter.com/user/status/1795130464497283121

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Israel is the only country these posters fight against, ignoring other countries created at that time that have terrible human rights and massive death counts. Israel is the bright light out of them, despite all the nonsense hate these guys preach here.

What does that even mean? Israel is the best of the civilian slaughterers? They get the bright light award for killing the most kids?


Anyways. #6