Brad Treliving needs to go

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Well I would prefer a team that competes for winning Stanley Cups, but I would agree for a significant portion of posters, less fire Brad people is a good thing because that seems to be a significant litmus test amongst posters on this site as to whether you are negative as a fan or not. Those that think everything is well run and that the Flames have a very good GM are considered positive fans who support the team. Those that do not hold that view are derided and labelled as negative.

I am not angry about anything. It will be fun to have a competitive team next year. It will be fun to make the playoffs. I don’t think that team is anywhere close to competing for a Stanley Cup though.

Labels fly in both directions.

Koolaid, goggles ... seen them all.

I always hope I like the GM. It's important to me because that's where you're going. I didn't have that with Feaster, and I certainly had my concerns near the end of Sutter's GM reign.

I haven't liked every move by Treliving, but overall I think he's a pretty smart guy that has made more good moves than bad.

That's not cheering for the GM over the logo on the front of the jersey, it's being happy with the guiding hand for the logo in the front of the jersey, because ultimately he's the guy that makes changes to who wears them.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Snip...
It will be fun to have a competitive team next year. It will be fun to make the playoffs. I don’t think that team is anywhere close to competing for a Stanley Cup though.
Snip...

I'll call Markstroms series against the Oilers a one off, but I guess that remains to be seen.
Obviously the defense is very good.
What is lacking up front?
Two top six forwards, including a C?
An entire second line?

What is 'required' to truly compete?

[Vinny01]

End of the day the Flames have won the Pacific in 2 of the last 3 seasons (there was no Pacific in 20/21). We just got another taste of how hard it is to be in this market. 2019 Kadri turns down a trade here that would have really moved the team forward but he used his NTC to say no. This year our 2 American drafted and developed superstars said they would not be here long term.

Calgary is a bottom tier market in the league. Worst arena, small metropolitan area, fishbowl hockey market, cold/dark winters, not a tax haven, heavy travel.

I think Treliving has done a nice job restoring respect to this organization that was eroded after the 48hrs of madness in 2010 and the Feaster years where the team talked big but everyone could see they were at best a bubble group who lost more trades than they won.

Sutter has been leading this culture change but bringing in Tanev, Markstrom and Coleman are big parts of that shift. Trading for Toffoli and Huberdeau continues that change. I love Gaudreau/Tkachuk but it was apparent there were some maturity issues there in how everything went down.

I admire Treliving’s ability to react when necessary and He has also shown his patience has been key. He has learned from past mistakes which has been evident over the years. I like that he has made 2 really big blockbuster hockey trades in the last 4 years that completely retooled this team in addition to those key free agent adds.

I have said this before that Treliving is not a mediocre GM but a good GM in a mediocre market.

I was ready to be done with him after the Canadian division and then the last season happened and I was excited again. This summer was a gut punch until he made a franchise altering deal and optimism is somewhat restored. I feel he has a reputation around the league that would land him a job as a GM fairly quickly if the Flames moved on.

If the demand is that this team constantly be in the top 10-15% of the league then that is unrealistic and fans wanting that type of scenario after every rebuild is going to be watching an endless rebuild. I think the Treliving/Sutter combo be given 3 year extensions to see if their 5 year plan of unfinished business can be accomplished

[Strange Brew]

I don’t know. It seems like when things aren’t looking so great it was ownership to blame for handcuffing theGM and not allowing him to do what he wants. After a great trade, we are back to the GM being the guiding hand and deserving of the praise.

Feaster was in way over his head as an NHL GM but I truly don’t remember if he was the target of more criticism on here until after he was gone. And he actually stumbled his way into a handful of good moves.

Anyway this club has had two excellent regular seasons under BT’s eight year tenure so he deserves credit for that IMO. I wouldn’t fire the guy nor would I sign him to a long term extension. A team like Calgary probably needs one of the very best GM’s in the league to truly compete and so I will always be open to door number three as an option until I’m convinced we have that person.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

End of the day the Flames have won the Pacific in 2 of the last 2 seasons (there was no Pacific in 20/21). We just got another taste of how hard it is to be in this market. 2019 Kadri turns down a trade here that would have really moved the team forward but he used his NTC to say no. This year our 2 American drafted and developed superstars said they would not be here long term.

Calgary is a bottom tier market in the league. Worst arena, small metropolitan area, fishbowl hockey market, cold/dark winters, not a tax haven, heavy travel.

I think Treliving has done a nice job restoring respect to this organization that was eroded after the 48hrs of madness in 2010 and the Feaster years where the team talked big but everyone could see they were at best a bubble group who lost more trades than they won.

Sutter has been leading this culture change but bringing in Tanev, Markstrom and Coleman are big parts of that shift. Trading for Toffoli and Huberdeau continues that change. I love Gaudreau/Tkachuk but it was apparent there were some maturity issues there in how everything went down.

I admire Treliving’s ability to react when necessary and He has also shown his patience has been key. He has learned from past mistakes which has been evident over the years. I like that he has made 2 really big blockbuster hockey trades in the last 4 years that completely retooled this team in addition to those key free agent adds.

I have said this before that Treliving is not a mediocre GM but a good GM in a mediocre market.

I was ready to be done with him after the Canadian division and then the last season happened and I was excited again. This summer was a fit punch until he made a franchise altering deal and optimism is somewhat restored. I feel he has a reputation around the league that would land him a job as a GM fairly quickly if the Flames moved on.

If the demand is that this team constantly be in the top 10-15% of the league then that is unrealistic and fans wanting that type of scenario after every rebuild is going to be watching an endless rebuild. I think the Treliving/Sutter combo be given 3 year extensions to see if their 5 year plan of unfinished business can be accomplished

Damn. There are very few, if any posts, that I have 100% agreed with word for word.

But this is one.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don’t know. It seems like when things aren’t looking so great it was ownership to blame for handcuffing theGM and not allowing him to do what he wants. After a great trade, we are back to the GM being the guiding hand and deserving of the praise.

I don't think people absolve Treliving of all blame.

I think what people really say is that his guidance from ownership is to compete and be a playoff team. So all the calls for re-builds or gutting the roster aren't based in reality because his bosses don't want that even if some fans do.

So you have to base the moves with that in mind because that is what his bosses are asking him to do.

[Big Erned Nevergivn]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

End of the day the Flames have won the Pacific in 2 of the last 2 seasons (there was no Pacific in 20/21). We just got another taste of how hard it is to be in this market. 2019 Kadri turns down a trade here that would have really moved the team forward but he used his NTC to say no. This year our 2 American drafted and developed superstars said they would not be here long term.

Calgary is a bottom tier market in the league. Worst arena, small metropolitan area, fishbowl hockey market, cold/dark winters, not a tax haven, heavy travel.

I think Treliving has done a nice job restoring respect to this organization that was eroded after the 48hrs of madness in 2010 and the Feaster years where the team talked big but everyone could see they were at best a bubble group who lost more trades than they won.

Sutter has been leading this culture change but bringing in Tanev, Markstrom and Coleman are big parts of that shift. Trading for Toffoli and Huberdeau continues that change. I love Gaudreau/Tkachuk but it was apparent there were some maturity issues there in how everything went down.

I admire Treliving’s ability to react when necessary and He has also shown his patience has been key. He has learned from past mistakes which has been evident over the years. I like that he has made 2 really big blockbuster hockey trades in the last 4 years that completely retooled this team in addition to those key free agent adds.

I have said this before that Treliving is not a mediocre GM but a good GM in a mediocre market.

I was ready to be done with him after the Canadian division and then the last season happened and I was excited again. This summer was a fit punch until he made a franchise altering deal and optimism is somewhat restored. I feel he has a reputation around the league that would land him a job as a GM fairly quickly if the Flames moved on.

If the demand is that this team constantly be in the top 10-15% of the league then that is unrealistic and fans wanting that type of scenario after every rebuild is going to be watching an endless rebuild. I think the Treliving/Sutter combo be given 3 year extensions to see if their 5 year plan of unfinished business can be accomplished

Well put!

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I don't think people absolve Treliving of all blame.

I think what people really say is that his guidance from ownership is to compete and be a playoff team. So all the calls for re-builds or gutting the roster aren't based in reality because his bosses don't want that even if some fans do.

So you have to base the moves with that in mind because that is what his bosses are asking him to do.

Well I have read that ownership is providing more than just guidance and that they are hands on the wheel in some cases. I don’t profess to know, but it does seem to me that talk comes out more in bad times than good. Who knows maybe BT wanted a trade for prospects and picks and ownership wanted the Florida deal. Or maybe it was Murray that told BT to give Huberdeau 8*$10.5 and the GM wanted to let it play out longer.

I still go back to the supposed Neal buyout to which ownership said no. Then he saves the day with the Lucic trade. Don’t even know if it’s true, but suggests to me it’s hard to assign praise or blame to much of anything without knowing what the GM would do if left to their own devices.

But all that said, you’d have to be a next level skeptic not to praise Treliving for the FLA deal.

[GioforPM]

“Compete for Stanley Cups”.

If you accept that the Flames were a lower level team when he took over 8 years ago (despite the fluke 14-15 season), arguably he could have only possibly had a teams which competed for the cup for the last, say, 4 seasons. I mean, Yzerman is supposed to be a great GM and he has had the same results with the Red Wings for 3 years in a row. They aren’t close yet to a PO spot, let alone competing. Anyway, 3 teams have won the cup in the last 4 years, and 6 teams have competed in the finals, since TB has appeared 3 times. The other finals teams have plummeted since their one appearance, so I’m not sure how you’d gauge their success overall. I mean, was Bergeron a great GM? Is Jim Nill?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

“Compete for Stanley Cups”.

If you accept that the Flames were a lower level team when he took over 8 years ago (despite the fluke 14-15 season), arguably he could have only possibly had a teams which competed for the cup for the last, say, 4 seasons. I mean, Yzerman is supposed to be a great GM and he has had the same results with the Red Wings for 3 years in a row. They aren’t close yet to a PO spot, let alone competing. Anyway, 3 teams have won the cup in the last 4 years, and 6 teams have competed in the finals, since TB has appeared 3 times. The other finals teams have plummeted since their one appearance, so I’m not sure how you’d gauge their success overall. I mean, was Bergeron a great GM? Is Jim Nill?

I think if you accept that the Flames were a lower level team when he took over 8 years ago (despite the fluke 14-15 season), then you have to be willing to criticize the fact that they have been a cap ceiling team since the 15-16 season, when the team still needed to acquire foundational pieces to compete for a Stanley Cup. Since that season when the Flames became a cap ceiling team the following teams have reached the Cup Semi-final from the Flames' path:

Anaheim
St. Louis
Nashville
San Jose
Las Vegas
Winnipeg
Colorado
Edmonton
Dallas
Montreal(when the Flames were in the Canadian Division)

Now factoring in teams who did not hit the salary cap ceiling for most of those same years:

Seattle (new team)
Arizona

Now, account for the fact that the 2014 Kings and 2015 Blackhawks were just beginning to rebuild after successful Cup runs, and you've got the following teams remaining in the West, and you're left with Calgary's actual peers in terms of postseason success:

Vancouver
Calgary
Minnesota


To me personally, that is underwhelming company for a "Great GM". Especially considering some of the GMs on that first list of teams are far from "Great"

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well I have read that ownership is providing more than just guidance and that they are hands on the wheel in some cases. I don’t profess to know, but it does seem to me that talk comes out more in bad times than good. Who knows maybe BT wanted a trade for prospects and picks and ownership wanted the Florida deal. Or maybe it was Murray that told BT to give Huberdeau 8*$10.5 and the GM wanted to let it play out longer.

I still go back to the supposed Neal buyout to which ownership said no. Then he saves the day with the Lucic trade. Don’t even know if it’s true, but suggests to me it’s hard to assign praise or blame to much of anything without knowing what the GM would do if left to their own devices.

But all that said, you’d have to be a next level skeptic not to praise Treliving for the FLA deal.

From that report that the Flames couldn't complete the Ben Bishop trade (was it a signing) because Ken King was on a flight I've assumed ownership is pretty involved.

I don't know how much.

I don't know where things start ... Treliving has an idea to go out and sign Tanev and the owners agree or disagree would be my guess. But I don't know.

I don't know if Treliving had the Sutter idea or the owners insisted on it.

I feel very confident that the strategy around Gaudreau going into last season would have ownership approval. The contract offers to Gaudreau and Huberdeau would have ownership approval.

I suspect the overall direction of compete now comes from ownership.

But I don't blame the owners for signing James Neal, as I think Trevling and his scouting department recommended it.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I think if you accept that the Flames were a lower level team when he took over 8 years ago (despite the fluke 14-15 season), then you have to be willing to criticize the fact that they have been a cap ceiling team since the 15-16 season, when the team still needed to acquire foundational pieces to compete for a Stanley Cup. Since that season when the Flames became a cap ceiling team the following teams have reached the Cup Semi-final from the Flames' path:

Anaheim
St. Louis
Nashville
San Jose
Las Vegas
Winnipeg
Colorado
Edmonton
Dallas
Montreal(when the Flames were in the Canadian Division)

To me that just shows that playoff success is random and generally your best bet is building a team that's a good regular season team over a long period of time.

Flames could have easily been part of that group this season if they didn't lose their head and Markstrom shows up against Edmonton. Or even in the bubble if they go up 3-1 against Dallas if Ward doesn't play the same players for a 90 second shift. Up until this season Colorado wasn't even part of that group - but had clearly been on the right path to success - they could have lost against St.Louis if Binnington didn't get hurt too. Margins are that thin in the playoffs.

Also I'm not firing a GM based on what happened in his first 3-4 years here with the team, that would be foolish. Especially for a young GM, who was a first time GM. You need to look at more recent history.

Let's look holistically at this team from 18-19 to 21-22 which really should have been their "contention window".

Regular Season:

Point Percentage: .607 (4th in the West, 11th Overall)
Regulation Wins: 136 (2nd in the West, 6th Overall)
Goals For: 939 (3rd in the West, 8th Overall)
Goals Against: 803 (3rd in the West, 7th Overall)
2 Division Titles

Really this team has been a top 4 regular season team in the West the past 4 seasons, which is what you are looking for in your contention window. Colorado is the class of the west, but Flames are in the second grouping with Vegas, and St Louis over the last 4 seasons. Nothing about those results screams "Fire the GM" to me, unless we are overreacting to something.

The playoff success hasn't been there (part of that is shooting 6.3% at 5v5 in the playoffs since 18-19) but only 4 Western Conference teams have won more than the 11 playoff games the Flames have won the past 4 seasons. Colorado, Vegas, St.Louis, and Dallas.

It really is unfortunate that Gaudreau and Tkachuk decided to take the easy way out because this team really was on the right track. But I actually think with Huberdeau and Weegar in the mix they still have a shot...especially if they can find a way to add another forward.

[calgarywinning]

But I don't blame the owners for signing James Neal, as I think Trevling and his scouting department recommended it.

However, if he was scouted favourably; signed an end of career lucrative contract and came to town and partied hard sticking it to the owner, gm and fan base that lies with the player in my opinion. These are one of the intangibles.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

However, if he was scouted favourably; signed an end of career lucrative contract and came to town and partied hard sticking it to the owner, gm and fan base that lies with the player in my opinion. These are one of the intangibles.

Ultimately the GM and his pro scouting staff are going to make recommendations on where they spend their dollars.

A failure of any kind isn't on the owner.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

The sanctimony of fans like you who cheer for the GM in the press box and not the logo on the front of the jersey is always a welcome reprieve to fans like me that think there may be a better way. Your clear, concise and logical ability to present irrefutable arguments that show that Brad is the best because one cannot guarantee that anyone else could get us past 5 wins in a single playoff (or at least could not be guaranteed to do so) proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that one would be crazy to consider a different GM.

I don't think it's nearly that black and white.
I suspect that ownership had involvement in both decisions, which could run the range of approving the decisions, influencing the decisions or dictating the decisions. Only BT and the owners know where on that line things sit. But for decisions of that magnitude I suspect they were involved.
But you are coloring things by calling it "Murray's decision to hire Sutter" because that best suits your narrative.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Well I would prefer a team that competes for winning Stanley Cups, .

The last 2 full 82 game seasons were the best regular seasons since 1989. Those teams were picked by many to go deep and possibly win it all but they didn’t. Peters coasted into the playoffs and they got beat by an emerging juggernaut and last year our goalie had a rough week and a half and the team got roped into trading chances after putting up 18 goals for against the Oilers in the last game of the season and first in the second round.

Do you blow it up over those couple of bad weeks or do you see the progress this team has made over the past couple years.

Your comment on “I would prefer a team that competes for Stanley Cups” is akin to a short, fat, awkward, balding man stating he only dates 9’s or 10’s. You need to realize this market is a steep up hill battle to build a consistent winner but we have our best regular season team in over 30 years recently and a coach with a proven track record in the playoffs. Things take time but the group is moving in the right direction. Even after the shock of Gaudreau and Tkachuk leaving they have recovered and put together a solid team on paper.

I think it is FAR more likely a new GM would come in and put us in the forever rebuild that Edmonton was in and Buffalo is still trying to get out of because at the end of the day our arena makes us fat, our weather makes us short, and the fishbowl life in a smaller city makes us awkward and I still think we have a shot to get the girl with this group.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Bingo

From that report that the Flames couldn't complete the Ben Bishop trade (was it a signing) because Ken King was on a flight I've assumed ownership is pretty involved.

I don't know how much.

I don't know where things start ... Treliving has an idea to go out and sign Tanev and the owners agree or disagree would be my guess. But I don't know.

I don't know if Treliving had the Sutter idea or the owners insisted on it.

I feel very confident that the strategy around Gaudreau going into last season would have ownership approval. The contract offers to Gaudreau and Huberdeau would have ownership approval.

I suspect the overall direction of compete now comes from ownership.

But I don't blame the owners for signing James Neal, as I think Trevling and his scouting department recommended it.

All good things that Treliving has done but somehow people want to put a spin on it that it wasn't his doing.

If you want to saddle the guy with Neal and other ####ty signings how about we just give him credit for the good deals also.

[VilleN]

I own several small businesses, a hockey team, I’m a professor (think Dead Poets Society), I am a professional negotiator, I’m Duayne ‘The Rock’ Johnson, I am ####ing awesome, I am ####ing humble and altruistic too, so trust me when I say - I would fire Treliving if he managed any of my successful businesses, so the fact that The Flames ownership isn’t doing that means they are dumb and I am way more smarter.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I don't think it's nearly that black and white.

I suspect that ownership had involvement in both decisions, which could run the range of approving the decisions, influencing the decisions or dictating the decisions. Only BT and the owners know where on that line things sit. But for decisions of that magnitude I suspect they were involved.

But you are coloring things by calling it "Murray's decision to hire Sutter" because that best suits your narrative.

How much does this even matter, since it seems abundantly clear that both ownership and Treliving were lock-step in the decision to hire Sutter? It is difficult to imagine that Treliving could have survived this long if he was bypassed by ownership.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

[calgarywinning]

Originally Posted by VilleN

I own several small businesses, a hockey team, I’m a professor (think Dead Poets Society), I am a professional negotiator, I’m Duayne ‘The Rock’ Johnson, I am ####ing awesome, I am ####ing humble and altruistic too, so trust me when I say - I would fire Treliving if he managed any of my successful businesses, so the fact that The Flames ownership isn’t doing that means they are dumb and I am way more smarter.

Spoken like a true VilLen.