Russia invades Ukraine

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Originally Posted by Dion

Not sure what you mean. Can you clarify?

Originally Posted by Cheese

For those who ask: “Why does Ukraine matter? “
This is why Ukraine matters.

It is the second largest country by area in Europe by area and has a population
of over 40 million - more than Poland.

Ukraine ranks:
1st in Europe in proven recoverable reserves of uranium ores;
2nd place in Europe and 10th place in the world in terms of titanium ore reserves;
2nd place in the world in terms of explored reserves of manganese ores (2.3 billion tons, or 12% of the world's reserves);
2nd largest iron ore reserves in the world (30 billion tons);
2nd place in Europe in terms of mercury ore reserves;
3rd place in Europe (13th place in the world) in shale gas reserves (22 trillion cubic meters)
4th in the world by the total value of natural resources;
7th place in the world in coal reserves (33.9 billion tons)

Ukraine is an important agricultural country:

1st in Europe in terms of arable land area;
3rd place in the world by the area of black soil (25% of world's volume);
1st place in the world in exports of sunflower and sunflower oil;
2nd place in the world in barley production and 4th place in barley exports;
3rd largest producer and 4th largest exporter of corn in the world;
4th largest producer of potatoes in the world;
5th largest rye producer in the world;
5th place in the world in bee production (75,000 tons);
8th place in the world in wheat exports;
9th place in the world in the production of chicken eggs;
16th place in the world in cheese exports.

Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600 million people.

Ukraine is an important industrialised country:

1st in Europe in ammonia production;
Europe's 2nd’s and the world’s 4th largest natural gas pipeline system;
3rd largest in Europe and 8th largest in the world in terms of installed capacity of nuclear power plants;
3rd place in Europe and 11th in the world in terms of rail network length (21,700 km);
3rd place in the world (after the U.S. and France) in production of locators and locating equipment;
3rd largest iron exporter in the world
4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants in the world;
4th world's largest manufacturer of rocket launchers;
4th place in the world in clay exports
4th place in the world in titanium exports
8th place in the world in exports of ores and concentrates;
9th place in the world in exports of defence industry products;
10th largest steel producer in the world (32.4 million tons).

Ukraine matters. That is why its independence is important to the rest of the world.

Originally Posted by Minnie

Ukraine matters because of its people. Screw the rest.

That should explain it for you Dion.

[Biff]

Wow. That's a pretty hot take. 8 years ago, people worked to get rid of an obvious Kremlin-planted puppet so.....

What on earth is the possible thinking behind linking a war of aggression and normal everyday democratic geopolitics?

Good lord, Pointman. Do better.

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by Dion

Not sure what you mean. Can you clarify?

Ukraine matters because of its people. First and always.

Originally Posted by chubeyr1

Waiting for the response making popcorn as I wait.

Do you disagree that this was an unjust war?

Sod off, strange little man.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I find it fascinating the way Pointman sees this man and his actions. I don't even mean that in a derogatory way, just in a matter of fascination in seeing how where we're born and raised paves the way for how we interpret the world around us.

You seem to see it as good vs evil. The west can do no wrong except for not punishing evil hard enough. I see it as a battle of two powers, neither of which is particularly honest and clean. USA is, well, wily. Not shy of dirty tactics. It's well documented. Not believing it is nothing short of naive. Still, Putin has clearly went way over the foul line here and must be trialed for this. The west being no angels - and they are far from angels - is in no way a justification of stunning disgusting war crimes that we are witnessing in real time.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Dion

Not sure what you mean. Can you clarify?

All lives matter is one heck of a take for a statement that favours the people over all of the "reasons why Ukraine matters" post from Cheese.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Cuz EU has no defense agreements with Ukraine and they are not a member of NATO. Traditionally Ukraine has been a Russian ally and previous Ukrainian administrations were complicit the Gazprom natural gas kickback and bribery schemes in which Russian LNG was sold to EU countries like Germany through pipelines that ran through Ukraine while Putin and Oligarchs were skimming profits off the top and using the proceeds to buy European and Ukrainian government officials + make themselves filthy rich. When the Orange revolution in 2013 deposed of Russia's puppet government, the Ukrainians demanded broader integration with the EU, but not NATO membership yet.

Putin losing his puppet government in Ukraine freaked him out because at that point he was looking to retire, but the the Orange revolution showed him even he could be deposed if people rose up. Combination of potentially being prosecuted himself, losing Ukraine and Russia's only warm water naval port, and possibly being surrounded by NATO/EU nations that were not friendly to Russian interests sent him off the deep end and he invaded Crimea knowing NATO membership rules state that a country needs to be at peace and have resolved any outstanding border conflicts before being allowed join NATO. Ukraine having an active conflict with Russia prevent them from joining up and Russia wouldn't be surrounded.

EU not responding harshly against Russia the first time showed Putin he could get away with what he had just seized, and the EU countries went back to their Russian gas addiction and complacency convinced Putin was only interested in that one piece of land around their port. They never thought Putin would be crazy enough to actually roll to full scale war like he has and after Trump the US had major credibility problems trying to convince the EU. EU's addiction to Russian LNG has prevented them from doing anything militarily. Their mentality was always Ukraine was always "its within Russias sphere of influence anyways" and not really their problem. Combination of US being war weary (no more boots on the ground), NATO allies getting burned by Afghanistan/Iraq wars, EU being happily addicted to Russian low cost natural gas, and no one wanting to fight an nuclear armed Russian unless they absolutely have to, has prevented a troop build up ahead of time despite knowing far in advance an invasion was coming. Lot of these factors are still preventing a proper sanction response against Russia.

This is very good and objective take.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Biff

Wow. That's a pretty hot take. 8 years ago, people worked to get rid of an obvious Kremlin-planted puppet so.....

What on earth is the possible thinking behind linking a war of aggression and normal everyday democratic geopolitics?

Good lord, Pointman. Do better.

The thinking behind linking is that those two events are obviously linked. It's a consensus that if 2014 toppling never happened, this war does not happen either. The thinking here is pretty straight forward and is generally accepted. This should in no way be interpreted as if 2014 revolution justifies the madness that is happening now, which is 100% on Putin.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Minnie

Ukraine matters because of its people. First and always.

I agree with you on that.

[FlameyMcFlameFace]

Kyiv will probably be taken by tomorrow.

It’s hard for me to wrap my head around a country take over another country. Essentially ripping their identify off the face of the map and all we could do was provide sanctions. I understand it’s critical to avoiding a world war…

But just god damn, it does not feel right in my soul just watching this

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Reaper

All lives matter is one heck of a take for a statement that favours the people over all of the "reasons why Ukraine matters" post from Cheese.

I don't disagree that Ukraine matters. I just hate the thought of people being killed in a war - if that makes sense to you

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by FlameyMcFlameFace

Kyiv will probably be taken by tomorrow.

It’s hard for me to wrap my head around a country take over another country. Essentially ripping their identify off the face of the map and all we could do was provide sanctions. I understand it’s critical to avoiding a world war…

But just god damn, it does not feel right in my soul just watching this

Yeah, but just you wait a month or two until those sanctions really start to kick in.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Pointman

You seem to see it as good vs evil. The west can do no wrong except for not punishing evil hard enough. I see it as a battle of two powers, neither of which is particularly honest and clean. USA is, well, wily. Not shy of dirty tactics. It's well documented. Not believing it is nothing short of naive. Still, Putin has clearly went way over the foul line here and must be trialed for this. The west being no angels - and they are far from angels - is in no way a justification of stunning disgusting war crimes that we are witnessing in real time.

Sorry, this may have come off differently than I intended. I meant it was fascinating to see your perspective and what has influenced it in your lifetime, as we don't get to see much of that in our side of the world.

I'm also biased in my own ways growing up in Canada, but not in the way you implied, as I am not American. I've called the US an evil super power in the world since I was in high school in the early 2000's and witnessed what they did to Iraq. They have been a victor for decades now and the victor gets to write history. I also believe that any country superpower that is dominating in this world is going to be some level of evil in the world, while telling their citizens they are clean and doing good.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Dion

I agree with you on that.

Well then what the heck did "all lives matter" mean? How did you even come up with the idea of attaching a racist slogan with this occupation?

EDIT: I'm not suggesting you're racist, but surely everyone out there knows what "all lives matter" means at this point.

[FlameyMcFlameFace]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yeah, but just you wait a month or two until those sanctions really start to kick in.

I understand. But imagine going 30-60 days as a citizen in these parts, and thats if the sanctions have a critical role. It would feel like years. I'm more concerned for the citizens and what will happen to them in this time while we wait for the sanctions to "kick in".

I guess in the west, we ask the question, is that the risk/gamble we take on the Ukrainian people to avoid a war with a bully?


This sucks man.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Minnie

Ok?

Originally Posted by Dion

Not sure what you mean. Can you clarify?

Originally Posted by chubeyr1

Waiting for the response making popcorn as I wait.

Do you disagree that this was an unjust war?

Originally Posted by Minnie

Ukraine matters because of its people. First and always.




Sod off, strange little man.

Originally Posted by Reaper

All lives matter is one heck of a take for a statement that favours the people over all of the "reasons why Ukraine matters" post from Cheese.

Originally Posted by jayswin

Well then what the heck did "all lives matter" mean? How did you even come up with the idea of attaching a racist slogan with this occupation?

Why are you guys all at each others throats when you're all agreeing with each other?

[icarus]

Originally Posted by Robo

I feel this war is going to backfire on Putin so many people in Russia do not want this war Including soldiers

The only way this can backfire on him is if his own armed forces mutiny against him. Super longshot. (It's happened before in Russia, to Nicolas II in 1917, but that was in a milieu of decades of open hostility to the tsar. Even before 1917, the tsar's interior minister Stolypin was assassinated in Kyiv, incidentally).

Putin basically doesn't give a s*** about anyone or anything now except his crazed project.

He doesn't care for popular opinion at home or abroad. He can put to rest any dissent at home. No one else in the world will militarily challenge him and sanctions don't touch him (some assess that he is in fact the richest man alive). He doesn't care about the economy, he is insulated. You might even go so far as to say he doesn't care about Russia, like so many maniacal dictators of the past. He has power, he has ambition, and he's going to see how far he can push it before he leaves this mortal coil.

[tony-soprano]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Why are you guys all at each others throats when you're all agreeing with each other?

Some people just need an excuse to argue.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Why are you guys all at each others throats when you're all agreeing with each other?

Nobody......and I repeat nobody is at each others throats. There was an exchange of info which I agreed with

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Dion

Nobody......and I repeat is at each others throats. There was an exchange of info which I agreed with

Then you got jumped on for it

[Dion]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Well then what the heck did "all lives matter" mean? How did you even come up with the idea of attaching a racist slogan with this occupation?

EDIT: I'm not suggesting you're racist, but surely everyone out there knows what "all lives matter" means at this point.

It wasn't meant to be racist. People are being killed in this war and I hate that fact.