Ongoing Residential Schools Tragedy Discussion

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

The Catholic Church ran schools for non-indigenous kids at the same time but to my knowledge there is no evidence that similar results occurred at those institutions.

9,000 children died in Church-run homes for unwed mothers and orphans in Ireland between 1922 and 1998.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...her-baby-homes

796 were found in one mass grave

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...her-baby-homes

The cultural suppression that was carried out in Canada’s residential schools added a different dimension of cruelty. But the treatment of indigenous children in terms of living conditions, beatings, and vulnerability to abuse was not much different from the lethal callousness with which children were treated in Church-run institutions elsewhere.

[timun]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

The Catholic Church ran schools for non-indigenous kids at the same time but to my knowledge there is no evidence that similar results occurred at those institutions.

Several québécois I know would argue otherwise...

[timun]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

My question is what happened to all these kids? Did they die of neglect? Malnutrition? Were they beaten to death for disobedience?

Are there no records at all of these schools and what occurred for a century?

That's a massive part of the problem: no, in most cases there aren't any records [EDIT:] that we know of. Kids just went to school and never came home, and the families were given vague answers as to what happened, if any answer at all.

EDIT: the Catholic Church haven't handed over any records.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I would, and do, treat them as equal. Because they are.

But do we just forget the historical context of the white man lecturing the Indigenous man on faith matters? It was a very dark timeline for this country.

I think you need to take a good, long hard look at what equality means and how your thinking and actions reflect that. Because I am not seeing equality in your posts, I am seeing infantilizing special treatment with no benefit, other than to satisfy a white saviour complex.

If you see a diverse group of Catholics (since it's the running example), and would engage them individually in a conversation strictly about Catholicism differently or not at all based on their race, sexuality, or gender... that's a sign you do not view them as equals.

If you feel you can't have the same conversation with an indigenous person as you would a white person around something that has nothing to do with either of these identities, you need to put the work in and change that. Treat people equally. We are people that come from different places and have different histories, but we are still people and should be treated equally as such.

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

My only hope is that these atrocities are a call to action to help indigenous people in canada right now by improving their living conditions, education etc. I'm admittedly incredibly pessimistic that public attention will only go so far as thoughts and prayers but will stop short of meaningful action and that any funds earmarked will not go to where they are needed.

Agreed. My hope would be that this awareness creates a conversation not just about the history of indigenous people in Canada, but the lives of indigenous people today. Because these aren't people that exist solely in history. And my hope would be that these conversations lead to meaningful change in their lives now and going forward, not simply an apology for the past. But it's a shakey hope.

[timun]

Originally Posted by wireframe

This isn't a catholic church problem. It's a government of Canada problem. There were just as many schools run by other Christian denominations and some run directly by the government. The reports from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission make it very clear that the government is more responsible for the tragedies at these schools than the churches because they didn't fund or regulate the schools appropriately.

I'm not trying to pick on you specifically. A lot of people are blaming the Catholic church. And I'm also not a fan of the church.

I don't disagree with you in principle, but I have one quibble: "there were just as many schools run by other Christian denominations" is not true. The majority were run by the Catholics, more than twice as many as any one denomination of protestant church. From what I recall the Anglican church were next most common, then the United Church, and a smattering of Presbyterian-run schools, but the Catholic Church ran more residential schools than all the rest combined.

The difference is the Catholics haven't atoned for it whatsoever. No apologies, and very deliberate statements that sidestep any culpability. The Anglicans, Presbyterians and United Church publicly apologized decades ago for the schools they ran. They participated in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's investigations, and handed over the records they kept. The Catholic Church has done diddly squat, hence why they in particular are being called out on it.

[TheIronMaiden]

I think what is lost in this is the fact that the United Church ran more schools then the Catholic Church.

edit, or rather protestant churches

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

My question is what happened to all these kids? Did they die of neglect? Malnutrition? Were they beaten to death for disobedience?

Are there no records at all of these schools and what occurred for a century?

All of the above, as well as suicide.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

9,000 children died in Church-run homes for unwed mothers and orphans in Ireland between 1922 and 1998.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...her-baby-homes

796 were found in one mass grave

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...her-baby-homes

The cultural suppression that was carried out in Canada’s residential schools added a different dimension of cruelty. But the treatment of indigenous children in terms of living conditions, beatings, and vulnerability to abuse was not much different from the lethal callousness with which children were treated in Church-run institutions elsewhere.

This needs deaths per student comparisons with Canadian Catholic schools if you want to use a “similar treatment as non indigenous people”.

If you read Ryersons writings he held that the treatment of indigoness people would be intentionally different.

[firebug]

Originally Posted by wireframe

This isn't a catholic church problem. It's a government of Canada problem. There were just as many schools run by other Christian denominations and some run directly by the government. The reports from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission make it very clear that the government is more responsible for the tragedies at these schools than the churches because they didn't fund or regulate the schools appropriately.

I'm not trying to pick on you specifically. A lot of people are blaming the Catholic church. And I'm also not a fan of the church.

Not trying to pick on you specifically, but i think this is the weakest of weak excuses.

I'm a member of a professional association with an Honor Code/Code of Ethics (CFA) and our professional expectation is to abide by the Legal Guidelines (ie those established by the Government) or the applicable Guideline from our Conduct Code... WHICHEVER IS HIGHER.

For an association that claims to be bounded by the 'Ultimate Guide to Ethics and Morality' (written by God himself) to be putting the blame on the government is weak weak weak.

The only thing worse than a Government that set out to destroy a People are those who were complicit with it while concurrently bragging about their moral and ethical superiority.

[timun]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I think what is lost in this is the fact that the United Church ran more schools then the Catholic Church.

edit, or rather protestant churches

There are 139 'recognized' residential schools (recognized in the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement and a few added later). 21 were non-denominational. Of the remaining 118:

The Catholic Church ran 63, and took over one of the ones previously run by the United Church.

The Anglican Church ran 35 of them.

The United Church ran 10, and took over an additional four from the Presbyterians and two from the Methodists (incl. the one taken over by the Catholics).

The Presbyterians ran 7 at one time or another (incl. the aforementioned).

The Mennonites ran three, the Baptists ran one.


So no, the protestant churches did not run more of them than the Catholic Church did.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

This needs deaths per student comparisons with Canadian Catholic schools if you want to use a “similar treatment as non indigenous people”.

If you read Ryersons writings he held that the treatment of indigoness people would be intentionally different.

In Ireland, 9,000 of 57,000 children who passed through the homes died, or 16 per cent.

In Canada, an estimated 6,000 (records are incomplete) of 150,000 children who passed through residential schools died, or 4 per cent.

The higher fatality rate in Ireland is likely due to the fact the homes included newborns and babies, and the infant mortality rate in Ireland in the early 20th century was very high. Whereas Canada’s residential schools included few pre-school aged children. So it’s difficult to make exact comparisons.

[Bill Bumface]

I don't really get why it's relevant.

If Catholic schools negligent practices led to the death of indigenous kids, we absolutely should talk about it.

If Catholic schools did the same to other kids, we should talk about that too, and give those issues their own space. They should not be used as whataboutism to dismiss any other wrongdoings.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

In Ireland, 9,000 of 57,000 children who passed through the homes died, or 16 per cent.

In Canada, an estimated 6,000 (records are incomplete) of 150,000 children who passed through residential schools died, or 4 per cent.

The higher fatality rate in Ireland is likely due to the fact the homes included newborns and babies, and the infant mortality rate in Ireland in the early 20th century was very high. Whereas Canada’s residential schools included few pre-school aged children. So it’s difficult to make exact comparisons.

I was more thinking comparing Catholic operated boarding schools for white kids within Canada vs residential schools within Canada. That comparison would start to unravel the discussion around the Church just not caring about children in general or specifically not caring about indigenous children.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Most Indigenous Canadians had adopted Christianity before residential schools were established. And in the period of first contact, most were baptized in adulthood.

Maybe you should go to the next Lac Ste Anne pilgrimage and tell the thousands of Indigenous Catholics gathered that they’re indoctrinated dupes living a sham. No doubt they’ll welcome a white man dispelling their ignorance.

No, they didnt adopt religion, they were forced to indoctrinate.
https://ecampusontario.pressbooks.pu...first-peoples/

When Europeans arrived in the seventeenth century, they brought with them religious and cultural ideologies from Europe. Missionaries from France, whether intentionally or not, played a large role in the violent colonization of Indigenous communities on Turtle Island.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Cheese

No, they didnt adopt religion, they were forced to indoctrinate.
https://ecampusontario.pressbooks.pu...first-peoples/

When Europeans arrived in the seventeenth century, they brought with them religious and cultural ideologies from Europe. Missionaries from France, whether intentionally or not, played a large role in the violent colonization of Indigenous communities on Turtle Island.

Well....children cant legally consent to most things, its why they're not allowed to drink, drive, vote or serve in the Armed Forces.. So saying they 'willingly adopted' something like religion is a a claim of dubious authenticity....at best.

[Flacker]

The Vatican publicly apologized for the treatment of Irish children in their care, they have yet to do so for the indigenous youth of Canada.

All protestant churches involved have issued public apologies and have agreed to take part in reconciliation. They all own their involvement, as did the government of Canada, they have seen the mistakes their predecessors have made, and changed the doctrines of their churches to be more inclusive of First Nations Spirituality.

Only national Catholic organizations (Missionary Oblates of Canada) have acknowledge their actions, but that bares little weight when there is silence from the pope.

Public apologies are all shown at the end of the executive summary of the Truth and Reconciliation report:
https://ehprnh2mwo3.exactdn.com/wp-c...nglish_Web.pdf

This should be mandatory reading for all Canadians.

That being said, apologies are going to be step one of many required. I sincerely hope that the discovery of physical graves leads to marked improvements in how First Nations are viewed in Canada. I hope real funding is allocated to improving living conditions on Canadian reserves, clean drinking water and proper sanitation should be a given.

I have written my MP to make this known as a priority for me, I would encourage you to do the same, if you agree.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I don't really get why it's relevant.

If Catholic schools negligent practices led to the death of indigenous kids, we absolutely should talk about it.

If Catholic schools did the same to other kids, we should talk about that too, and give those issues their own space. They should not be used as whataboutism to dismiss any other wrongdoings.

I completely agree. The concern I have is that some Canadians may try to use the Catholic Church as a scapegoat to absolve the Canadian government of their actions.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I completely agree. The concern I have is that some Canadians may try to use the Catholic Church as a scapegoat to absolve the Canadian government of their actions.

Not to absolve the government, but wasn’t the church largely informing the government? It seems to be simplifying the church’s role when the church was the defacto moral compass.

[Torture]

Even if you just skim through the "Survivors Speak" part of the TRC, you can't help but be horrified at the conditions and things that were done.

http://www.trc.ca/assets/pdf/Survivo...nglish_Web.pdf

[GirlySports]

Probably both church and state. 100 years ago, if there was no religion, no catholic church, the government, as British-Canadian men at the time, probably would have treated Indigenous people the same. Chucked into a school to learn "British" ways. I think the church was an equal partner.