Unpopular Opinions about Flames

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah. Had that in there but deleted it in an edit. Their top end guys are truly elite where as ours are just “good”.

Think is the Blues team didn’t have an Ovi or Backstrom either - so multiple ways to win in this league.

Point is just that scorched earth rebuild isn’t the right move at this point.

In this example though the right move would be completely revamping the top 6 player group and moving several drafts worth of high picks.

I don't know that I'm for that at this point. I mean, i'm definitely not for the current product, but I don't think I like the alternative of moving a dube level prospects and 3-4 first round picks to grab 2 new centres.

I'm not trying to quash what you're saying, I just don't know that it's a viable alternative.

Move out Monahan and Backlund, bring in Seguin and i don't know, coutourier or giroux minus the picks it would take to make those deals happen?

Tough call.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

The Blues were a fluke - they had a lot of really good players, they were rugged, and they found a superstar goalie on the garbage pile just in the nick of time. Kind of like the Hab fluke in 1993 (Binnington is obviously no Roy, but he was Roy for all intents and purposes last season).

The NHL is random though, and lots of luck is required in building a good roster.

Those Kings teams were 8th seeds that were kind of flukes that got lucky because the Flyers decided to go scorched earth and trade Carter / Richards.

Chicago/Pittsburgh/Washington got generational type talents and then drafted well around them to win the cup.

Bruins team that won the cup was a bit random too. Signed two big name UFAs (never usually a good way to succeed) in Chara and Savard, found a journeyman goalie in Thomas, and then hit on some 2nd round picks (Bergeron, Lucic, Marchand).

My point is just that this Flames roster is probably 80% there, the high performers are still quite young (except for Gio), and the guys they do have are signed to pretty reasonable contracts. Trading that away for picks is not going to get you closer to a cup. You just need to keep drafting well, and make smart trades to fill in weaknesses on the roster, not try to start from ground zero again.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

In this example though the right move would be completely revamping the top 6 player group and moving several drafts worth of high picks.

I don't know that I'm for that at this point. I mean, i'm definitely not for the current product, but I don't think I like the alternative of moving a dube level prospects and 3-4 first round picks to grab 2 new centres.

I'm not trying to quash what you're saying, I just don't know that it's a viable alternative.

Move out Monahan and Backlund, bring in Seguin and i don't know, coutourier or giroux minus the picks it would take to make those deals happen?

Tough call.

That is the tough part because I don't think we know what is available out there, and trades are probably the toughest thing to predict in the NHL.

I never would have guess Brodie+Janko for Kadri+Brown was something the Leafs would actually consider.

Just like Oshie for Brouwer+3rd probably shocked the Capitals fan base.

And just like O'Reilly for Thompson, a 1st, and a bunch of dead cap was probably shocking to the Blues fan base too.

All I know is that I've seen Edmonton, Florida, Buffalo, etc all try to just tank and that doesn't guarantee you anything. If you can somehow make a hockey trade that makes sense around Monahan, Gaudreau, Backlund, etc then I'm all for it. But I don't consider that a re-build - that's just smart management and really this team should have no untouchables.

[zamler]

Fluke or not they have Ryan O'Reilly the guy is scary when he wants to be.

[Itse]

The team is fundamentally good enough. They weren't just hot last season, they were genuinely good. Wrong time of the year that's all.

The problem I see right now is Peters going just crazy with the lines and having zero patience with anyone who doesn't have a good game. Quite predictably all it did was make it impossible for those with bad starts to get into it, and make the whole team nervous.

Of course the fans are a part of the problem here. Everyone loses their minds after every bad game, creating pressure for "someone to do something".

It's ridiculous. The team can't win with the fans or the coach right now, and I'm just extremely weary of it all.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

In the second half of the regular season, the St. Louis Blues i believe had the best goals against in the entire league. Jennings quality team defense, a great 1-2 centre punch and perhaps the best 3 zone centre in the entire league that year. And they won the cup.

The Blues were 24th in goals against during the first half of the year. But somehow they suddenly acquired 'Jennings quality team defense' while eating a New Year's ham?

24th during the 1st half, 1st during the 2nd half.

Same team, new goalie. And that goalie shot the lights out. Put that goaltending on just about any team in the league, and they have a legitimate chance to win.

And then when they do win, suddenly they have Jennings quality team defense and their centre depth looks infinitely better.

Fans are always of the opinion that players that haven't won, can't win. Until they do win. Then the history books are re-written, and they become the elite players that the other (can't win) players are compared against. Examples: Ovechkin, Yzerman, Datsyuk...

[Flamenspiel]

^^the “fans” are definetly not the problem, they are the victims. I would say that the Flames are kind of the Everton FC of the NHL, never bad enough to go down, but not good enough to win either.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

^^the “fans” are definetly not the problem, they are the victims. I would say that the Flames are kind of the Everton FC of the NHL, never bad enough to go down, but not good enough to win either.

Oh god. Perpetual mid table. It's so apt.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Fans are always of the opinion that players that haven't won, can't win. Until they do win. Then the history books are re-written, and they become the elite players that the other (can't win) players are compared against. Examples: Ovechkin, Yzerman, Datsyuk...

Ryan O'Reily was 28 years old, on his third team (4th if you include signing with the Flames) all bottom dwellers, viewed as a good center for bad teams, not a number one guy. Then he wins, he's the best.

Agreed fully with your post. Some fans, some in this thread, are simply front runners with their opinions. Their opinions change on a whim to whatever the top teams and players are doing at the time. Same guy lamenting Brodie should've been moved for less than optimal return is the same who said maybe it's better to keep Brodie for this season than get a worse return, since his value is better for the Flames for a year.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Can you give a hypothetical example of what you mean? Is it trading Gaudreau? Is it trading everyone but Tkachuk?

I just think writing this team off completely is a mistake. Not saying this current group is winning a cup.

I was too young to remember 89 and wasn’t a hardcore fan until 2004. The current group we have is the best core of players in the last 20+ years. Most of our players are still young. I am not opposed to changes but what changes do you make? Realistically any seismic moves happen in the summer.

This team has their future captain in Tkachuk and if they shifted to rebuild o doubt he wants to stay through that.

Most talented group of players I'll agree with, but best team?

As for what to do? I really don't know what the entire process would be, but I think the result is that Gaudreau and Monahan are gone, Gio is gone at peak trade value and you go from there. If the rest don't want to stay, then you deal with that then. You're not writing the team off, you're moving components for quality assets because there's something wrong with this mix.

There is no easy answer here, it's a bad bad scenario.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by zamler

Fluke or not they have Ryan O'Reilly the guy is scary when he wants to be.

Scary how? Physically? I find this perception of the player very interesting, even more interesting how common it is.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Scary how? Physically? I find this perception of the player very interesting, even more interesting how common it is.

Physical, good defensively. 1 goal 1 assist in game 7.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by zamler

Physical, good defensively. 1 goal 1 assist in game 7.

He isn’t physical at all though. This isn’t an attack as much as just something I hear so often and find it interesting.

No one on the team hits less than ROR

Scary good player though, that much is certain.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by zamler

Fluke or not they have Ryan O'Reilly the guy is scary when he wants to be.

Fluke in the sense of: how likely is it that you can summon your ECHL goalie late in the season and he turns into Patrick Roy? Maybe we could have won the Cup if we called up Mason McDonald after the All-Star break.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by nik-

Most talented group of players I'll agree with, but best team?

As for what to do? I really don't know what the entire process would be, but I think the result is that Gaudreau and Monahan are gone, Gio is gone at peak trade value and you go from there. If the rest don't want to stay, then you deal with that then. You're not writing the team off, you're moving components for quality assets because there's something wrong with this mix.

There is no easy answer here, it's a bad bad scenario.

Again last season was their best in 30 years and they were the first team to have 5 70+ point players since the 90’s. It was a deep team that dominated offensively and defensively most of the year.

I get that they are trending down since March of last year and maybe the mojo is gone. So the plan is trading Brodie, Hamonic, Frolik, Jankowski and other pending free agents for assets then truly blowing the team up by trading Monahan, Gaudreau, Giordano in the summer (trading guys like that in season is tough and usually does not result in maximizing the return).

I feel that amount of change is not necessary. I would understand moving Gio if he still had number 1 Dman value. With 2 years left on his deal after this year moving Gaudreau may also make sense if this team misses the playoffs.

[nik-]

Best regular season in 30 years and completely negated in a week. It's really not something to hang our hats on.

Personally I'd rather have a mid seed team that could do real work in the playoffs than a paper tiger.

[Geeoff]

I would not consider the Blues to be a fluke at all. Apart from the first half of last season, they've been one of the most consistently good regular season teams

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by nik-

Best regular season in 30 years and completely negated in a week. It's really not something to hang our hats on.

Personally I'd rather have a mid seed team that could do real work in the playoffs than a paper tiger.

Maybe that is what happens this year?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Think is the Blues team didn’t have an Ovi or Backstrom either - so multiple ways to win in this league.

They did have an almost-elite two-way centre. Which is a more valuable asset in the playoffs than a one-dimensional offensive forward. If your #1C is a defensive liability who has to be kept away from opponents' top line, you're hamstrung in the unforgiving match-up game of the playoffs.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

They did have an almost-elite two-way centre. Which is a more important asset than one-dimensions offensive forward. If your #1C is a defensive liability who has to be kept away from opponents' top line, you're hamstrung in the unforgiving match-up game of the playoffs.

Who was famously always derided as a guy you couldn't win with. I mean, he couldn't win with Mackinnon, Iginla, Tanguay, Duchene, Landeskog, Varlamov, Barrie, Johnson (couldn't even make the POs).

I do agree that you limit your best line if you can't give them minutes against other top lines. That's why I am always reluctant to replace Lindholm with a RW who isn't as good defensively.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

The Blues were a fluke - they had a lot of really good players, they were rugged, and they found a superstar goalie on the garbage pile just in the nick of time. Kind of like the Hab fluke in 1993 (Binnington is obviously no Roy, but he was Roy for all intents and purposes last season).

Perhaps their goaltending was a fluke, but goaltending is also the most volatile aspect of the sport.

What wasn't a fluke was how they carried the play. Here were all the teams' regular season performances in 5v5 score-adjusted Fenwick following the NHL trade deadline (one of the stonger predictors of playoff success):



The Blues were exactly where you'd expect a cup contender to be. Right near the top, even ahead of "more talented" teams like Tampa, Pittsburgh, Washington. On paper they'd have been favoured in every single series they played except for the Bruins, and that ultimately went seven games, based simply on their ability to carry the play.

The real fluke of all these series, even more than Tampa - Columbus, was Calgary - Colorado. In my opinion the reffing got to the Flames mentally more than any talent disparity. They stopped playing their game because of the nature of the calls, and were caught reacting. And that's been evident in the early regular season where we've been the most penalized team.