Just a few things:
First the documentary Video:
Every country has issues with immigration. Is Israel dealing with their issues very well? Clearly not. They received a wave of refugees from Sudan simply because those refugees could walk to Israel, and all other countries had closed their boarders to them. To prevent even more mass immigration Israel closed that boarder.
Closer to home, both the US & Canada are working out their issues. The US is struggling with mass illegal immigration from Mexico with US citizen protests, "America for Americans", arguments in congress, turning away busloads of children, and building a fence. Canada is making it harder for immigrants by revamping the Temporary Foreign Workers program and wanting to deny some health care to refugees (I think the Supreme Court has overturned that?). Let's not forget the turn to the right in many European countries regarding Muslim immigration.
I also notice that no one mentioned the large counter protest (pro-immigration) in the video. Even the filmmakers gave it short shrift (documentary filmmakers with an agenda, surprise).
It does not excuse Israel or the Israeli Government. But let's be honest, every society has it's xenophobic undertones and hardliners.
Back to the thread topic:
The munitions Israel uses and the tactic or strategy of how they warn targets, those are policies and are on the table. I do not know enough about munitions, but I think that explosives that spread other harmful things (flechettes, ball bearings, nails, etc.) are really bad and should not be used.
Israel does warn targets of impending attack - how long they should wait from warning to attack is debatable - but warn they do.
To post that the Israeli Military purposefully goes out of its way to targets civilians, purposefully seeks to kill children for effect - that is the 21st century equivalent of the ancient blood-libel that Jews need Christian Children's blood for Passover Matzoh. This is a dehumanizing and de-legitimizing accusation and can easily lead to the Antisemitism charge (ASC).
The Antisemitism charge has been made in this thread, a far off accusation in my opinion. There have been statements that can easily lead to the ASC, but are closer to heated rhetoric - using the term "Genocide"; implying the Jews who are Pro-Israel are uncivilized; Israelis are disgusting.
The same, I feel, for the Islamophobia charge for a number of other posts - Islam/Arabs are uncivilized; all Palestinians/Arabs want to be martyrs.
I like to believe that most Israelis & Palestinians would like to live & let live and that extremists are just that. I also like to give the benefit of the doubt and believe that when posters write "all" or "many" or don't quantify with "some" or "a few" that they are not maliciously painting a whole race/religion/nation with a single brush. Rather they are just trying to make heated points in a heated argument.
Of note, I would also like to point out the tactic of negating the ASC or Islamophobia charge. A poster writes a heated post and dares the opposition to call him/her an Anti-Semite or the charge is brushed off as the defacto reply from the pro-Israeli side because they refuse to accept your "logical, rational" point. The same can go the other way, and the charge is not always wrong.
Let's not forget that many posters (myself included) have a bias/agenda in this thread, as do most of the writers and filmmakers that are used as proofs. We may not be getting the full accurate story for anything - whether by government omission, reporter bias, news clip omission, out right repression. Israel dishes most of its information through government spokespeople (I do not think they allow imbedded reporters in their military units). By the same token most reporters in Gaza rely on "stringers", locals who know the language and layout, and often those stringers have their own agenda (they have no interest in showing reporters tunnels, launchers, or depots - though some reporters do witness these. They do have an interest in showing carnage and the reporters/broadcasters have an interest in showing it).
A couple of partisan points:
- Israel committing "genocide' or "ethnic cleansing" - This charge is just malicious.
In order to be true we all know the death toll would have to be at least 100x higher and Israeli-Arabs would have to all be deported (Yes, an Avi Libigdor plan. For reference on making deals with the devil please see Abbas/Hamas unity government). Abbas, on the other hand, has insisted that there will be no Jews in a Palestinian State.
- Israel may be using nasty tactics (Any information supplied by an NGO or stringer I personally take with a large grain of salt. I believe they have an agenda - same as others on this board who likely take IDF briefings with a large grain of salt), let's not forget that Hamas fighters do not wear uniforms - is it possible that a 30 year old casualty is identified as a civilian by hamas & as a soldier by Israel? And that Hamas has been found (I believe inadvertently) to hide munitions in mosques & schools (the UNRWA found rockets in their school and returned them to Hamas.)
- Just an aside - Flash Walken - did you know that both Noam Chomsky & Norman Finkelstein both admonished the BDS movement as ineffectual and dishonest? I know they would both find this war reprehensible and Israel's fault, but I thought it was an interesting note.
Lastly, Arya Stark - you're good. Do I detect a bit of a conspiracy theorist there? I may be wrong, but I think a few of your posts referred to articles espousing the "Israel kidnapped the kids to precipitate war" theory, and, of course, no Israel thread is complete without a reference to the USS Liberty conspiracy (I sat through that BBC Documentary too). Will we see the "Mossad is responsible for 9/11" or "Kissinger kept the Vietnam War going to provide Israel cover in 1973" theories soon?
By some of this logic, why doesn't Israel let a couple rockets through the dome to Tel-Aviv? Wouldn't some civilian Israeli deaths in Ashdod or the lower-class immigrant neighbourhoods just bolster Israel in world opinion/approval and "allow" Israel to deal with Gaza far more harshly?
I am likely done with this thread as I have no interest in the many personal back and forth accusatory posts. It is giving me heartburn.
I kindly ask the moderators to keep an eye on it (it’s a dirty job, but….) watch out for antisemitism, Islamophobia, nasty accusations, & odd theories.
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So why were they attacked then? Most of the survivors say they had waived at the Israeli planes before the attack. Watch the survivors talking about the incident. They all believe Israel deliberately attacked the U.S Navy ship.
Tell me why you think that is and what reason Israel would have to kill American citizens.
Here are the stories of the survivors. How anyone can defend this is beyond me. Truly despicable.
Planes travel really fast and high up. You're saying there's no chance the pilots missed the waiving civilians.
And yes the planes did deliberately attack the ship. They just thought it was an Egyptian ship. The Egyptian navy was known for trying to disguise their ships as Western ships.
Friendly fire incidents happen all the time. And yes it sucks for the victims and many of them must feel like they were purposely attacked.
And its not "all of the survivors" who claim the Israeli's attacked Americans intentionally. It's a few of them, as most people involved just state how confusing the incident was.
The majority of the Americans didn't die in the initial plane attack either. They died in a subsequent torpedo attack. An attack that occurred after American troops accidentally fired on Israeli torpedo boats.
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Planes travel really fast and high up. You're saying there's no chance the pilots missed the waiving civilians.
And yes the planes did deliberately attack the ship. They just thought it was an Egyptian ship. The Egyptian navy was known for trying to disguise their ships as Western ships.
Friendly fire incidents happen all the time. And yes it sucks for the victims and many of them must feel like they were purposely attacked.
And its not "all of the survivors" who claim the Israeli's attacked Americans intentionally. It's a few of them, as most people involved just state how confusing the incident was.
The majority of the Americans didn't die in the initial plane attack either. They died in a subsequent torpedo attack. An attack that occurred after American troops accidentally fired on Israeli torpedo boats.
First off, if you're going to claim most survivors just claimed it was confusing then post links. I will gladly read them.
Secondly, planes do travel fast and high but it was said by survivors in the earlier links I posted that they travelled over them several times. I don't believe for one second they missed them that many times and the first things they shot at were the machine gun tubs on board and the antennas. They saw enough to see there were people on the machine gun tubs but couldn't see their American flag? or that the Navy ship was not armed at all with anything other than machine guns?. One would think if they were attacking the enemy they'd at least know what kind of fire power they were facing.
Lastly, Arya Stark - you're good. Do I detect a bit of a conspiracy theorist there? I may be wrong, but I think a few of your posts referred to articles espousing the "Israel kidnapped the kids to precipitate war" theory, and, of course, no Israel thread is complete without a reference to the USS Liberty conspiracy (I sat through that BBC Documentary too). Will we see the "Mossad is responsible for 9/11" or "Kissinger kept the Vietnam War going to provide Israel cover in 1973" theories soon?
By some of this logic, why doesn't Israel let a couple rockets through the dome to Tel-Aviv? Wouldn't some civilian Israeli deaths in Ashdod or the lower-class immigrant neighbourhoods just bolster Israel in world opinion/approval and "allow" Israel to deal with Gaza far more harshly?
This is a blatant lie or you're thinking of someone else, so yes you are wrong. Not a conspiracy theorist at all, you don't need to be when you have several of the survivors alive and telling their stories.
How much bend over backwards unbridled and unbalanced support for Israeli occupation is just driven by plain old anti Muslim racism?
Possibly some these days, but I think mostly we're just all fed up with the stupidity and hatred of both sides, I personally think this idiocy will go on for decades, even centuries grinding down both sides and making them both basket cases.
In the end some loon will let off a suitcase nuke and wipe out both sides at once.
How much bend over backwards unbridled and unbalanced support for Israeli occupation is just driven by plain old anti Muslim racism?
A good deal, even by some nations. Look how quickly the countries of East Timor and South Sudan were carved out of the Muslim countries of Indonesia and Sudan. Palestine will forever remain a "complex" problem.
When the ambulances are pulling people out of warzones... yeah, it's not a surprise at all that some get hit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arya Stark
I'm not sure I'm following you. The government and its policies are what we judge a society by. This why Hamas is deplorable and why Israel is deplorable.
The people in that video are elected racist xenophobic officials representing Israel. And the rallies and their message was despicable and the cheering that followed was sickening.
These are the people of Israel. How can they claim to be a democracy when their people act and treat people like that and are supported by their government?
You said my point was foolish while making a foolish point yourself. If there are these type of people in America as you stated they definitely aren't supported by elected officials in the government.
Well then Canadians must be terrible, we elected Rob Anders and he called Nelson Mandela a terrorist.
Note that with proportional representation it is far easier for a few crazies to get in - but they are not representative of the population as a whole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist
If Israel had stopped their brutality towards the Palestinians there would not have been Rockets fired. No one here wins the chicken and egg dance
That's utter nonsense. Hamas is firing rockets because Israel exists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinordi
How much bend over backwards unbridled and unbalanced support for Israeli occupation is just driven by plain old anti Muslim racism?
I guess this must not apply to me because I'm not unbridled or unbalanced, but I voted for Nenshi so...
I'm not anti-Muslim, and anti-Hamas. I'm also anti-settlement, but you can take back a settlement. You can't take back a rocket.
It's a war. War is horrible. Everyone would rather win the war than lose the war. The results are predictable and tragic. This is not an Israel/Palestine thing. This is a war thing.
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- Just an aside - Flash Walken - did you know that both Noam Chomsky & Norman Finkelstein both admonished the BDS movement as ineffectual and dishonest? I know they would both find this war reprehensible and Israel's fault, but I thought it was an interesting note.
Dunno the reasons for why the poster characterized it they way they did, so hopefully s/he will elaborate.
Edit:
Note that Chomsky, as always, is unyieldingly dispassionate. He thinks the initiative should be more narrowly tailored to avoid pie-in-the-sky objectives. Therefore he disagrees with making certain aims (repatriation) front and center to the initiative. Also, in talking about Israel's treatment and policy towards Palestinians in and outside of Israel, he says conditions inside Israel are not accurately described as apartheid (owing largely to degree) whereas outside it is worse.
Last edited by Flames Fan, Ph.D.; 07-21-2014 at 10:58 AM.
Calling for expulsion of journalists and boycotting Arab Israeli businesses. Just par for the course for Israeli Foreign Minister Mr. Lieberman and the Beacon of Democracy that is Israel.
You know _Q_, I can get behind some of your points. But the way you deliver a lot of them is so annoyingly antagonistic that it seems like you're incapable of reasonable debate. You've had some really good arguments, but then they're diluted by your obvious disdain for Israel. Just sayin'.
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The presence of militant fighters in Shejaia became clear Sunday afternoon when, under the cover of a humanitarian truce intended to allow both sides to remove the dead and wounded, several armed Palestinians scurried from the scene.
Some bore their weapons openly, slung over their shoulder, but at least two, disguised as women, were seen walking off with weapons partly concealed under their robes. Another had his weapon wrapped in a baby blanket and held on his chest as if it were an infant.
Nice how Hamas involves civilians in the war. Without their deplorable tactics, I have no doubt civilian deaths would be much lower.
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can anyone provide me with info on Harpers/Canada's stance on all this?
Watching CBC this week i've been struck at the rhetoric of Harper and Baird - it seems they're much more openly pro-Israeli the US/Obama. Baird this morning almost sounded like he thinks this conflict is a black and white (good v evil) issue.
Harper's kind of been an annoying sabre rattler lately considering the state him and successive previous governments have allowed our military to get to. Great soldiers abandoned by politicians and now the politicians are puffing their chests.
Harper is a neocon and neocons are the staunchest defenders of Israel. So Harper is indeed more pro-Israel than Obama or most American Presidents not named Bush.
__________________
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