2011/12 Toronto Blue Jays Off-Season

[moon]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Even if Oliver is just average, he fills a desperate need for the Jays as a veteran presence in the pen and a LHP. Even if he's only this year's Dotel, it's all good. If we suck again, he'll find his way onto another team, and a prospect magically on to ours.

For a minimal investment, it's all good. It's not like he's making a ton.

Originally Posted by Parallex

A quick look at his stats show him giving up 17 runs last season (compared to 13 earned), 20 to 17 the year before, and zero additional unearned runs the year before. Hardly the situation you seem to be calling his norm. Looking at his peripherals he's probably due some some negative regression on BABIP but not much and he has a positive career and recent season GO/AO ratio (which in the AL East is a good thing to have).

Given his age it's just a matter of time before father time catches up with him so I'm a little concerned with that but ultimately he's just a part of the bullpen and by extension individually not very important. It's an alright signing provided that his dollars aren't the difference between getting a piece of true significance or not.

Speaking of really old guys I wonder if Moyer is going to pitch this year?

Remember and not just meant for you but Oliver was awful in the WS. That might have something to do with Maritmer and even my view if hom.

[ricoFlame]

Originally Posted by moon

Ya but he was bad for those teams.

Fair enough...it's tough to argue when you build up a case like that. I have a feeling you have absolutely no idea what Oliver was like over the past few years.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricoFlame

Fair enough...it's tough to argue when you build up a case like that. I have a feeling you have absolutely no idea what Oliver was like over the past few years.

I have actually watched him pitch so yes I have a feeling that I do know what he was like over the last couple of years.

I wasnt even really down on the potential signing but feel free to continue on the AA love in and go with the awesome signings that keep you solidly in 4th.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by moon

I have actually watched him pitch so yes I have a feeling that I do know what he was like over the last couple of years.

I wasnt even really down on the potential signing but feel free to continue on the AA love in and go with the awesome signings that keep you solidly in 4th.

its not like anyone is saying that darren oliver makes the jays magically better than a 4th place team. What he does bring is a slight upgrade to the pen overall. instead of having to rely solely on a pair of rookies that are question marks (perez + 1), the jays now have 7 solid relievers in Janssen, Oliver, Santos, Villaneuva, Litsch, Carreno, and Laffey.

could the jays still make some improvements to the pen, sure. it now is better than yesterday though.

If the Jays signed Fielder or got someone like Oswalt or Garza etc. then maybe there might be some raised hopes of being better than 4th, but I don't think anyone is expecting anything better than that right now. It is possible with the improvements they made in the 2nd half (no ab or starts for Davis, Patterson, Nix, Hill, Blo-Blo Reyes etc and giving those to Rasmus, Thames, Johnson, Lawrie, and Alvarez) might be enough to get them into 3rd, or even 2nd but I don't think anyone is counting on it actually happening.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

for the record I never said his norm was awful, just whenever I saw him pitch. Living where I live I don't get to see a ton of Rangers games. But, when I did seen them play AND Oliver pitched he was horrible. Not like Lewis, Holland, or even Uhera when good GREAT but when bad, boy howdy look out. He was just bad.

I'm not judging based on one game, but Game 6 of the WS sums up my thoughts if him. As soon as I saw him I thought "oh God this isn't over" and watched the most difficult loss of my sports fandom.

Perhaps he's great when I don't see him play, perhaps the cosmos know when I'm watching and the d-bag baseball gods adjust accordingly. But for the past few years I've cringed when he was on the mound & he's always given me a reason for it.

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by moon

I have actually watched him pitch so yes I have a feeling that I do know what he was like over the last couple of years.

I wasnt even really down on the potential signing but feel free to continue on the AA love in and go with the awesome signings that keep you solidly in 4th.

When did anyone here claim that Oliver was going to make this a playoff team? You are just making stuff up do the sake of argument now. Oliver would be a solid, no risk guy to have in the pen. Nothing wrong with that at all.

[ricoFlame]

Originally Posted by moon

I have actually watched him pitch so yes I have a feeling that I do know what he was like over the last couple of years.

I wasnt even really down on the potential signing but feel free to continue on the AA love in and go with the awesome signings that keep you solidly in 4th.

Fair enough, I do recall mentioning AA a lot during this Oliver discussion...

All i've brought up is how everything you're stating about oliver is completely wrong, nothing to do with AA, nothing about how he's gonna be with the Jays.

You stated:

Good signing if they aren't going for it this year as he can provide decent innings for the team but not a guy you want on a contending team as Martimer said.

I merely brought up the point that 'contending teams' have chosen to have him on their roster for the past 6 straight seasons...

then you said:

Ya but he was bad for those teams.

A very good argument based on some games that MQS watched in which Oliver took a dump on the mound, and a world series game you watched. Look at the numbers, then look at what people are actually saying.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Just to be clear, Oliver may be a fine pitcher, but I've never liked him and don't trust him on the mound. Just my personal opinion, his stats might say otherwise.

Again, this isn't just because of the World Series, here's a post I made (and it pained me to go back into this thread to find it) before the bottom of the 10th started:

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

Game 7, 2004 Playoffs against Vancouver, Cooke scored in the dying seconds to tie the game. Then shortly after overtime started Gelinas scored to win it.

I've argued since then that the fact Vancouver tied it up that late in such an important game made the victory that much sweeter.


Now to actually close it out, I'm so bloody nervous


Oh, Oliver, Fracking Frack

I don't like Oliver, moon agrees (and understandably so) but if he lands in Toronto I wish him all the best, and hope the stats prove me wrong.

[Cheese]

Blue Jays have signed LHP Aaron Laffey to a minor-league contract

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=383892

also Minor Leaguers RHP Jerry Gil, RHP Garret Mock, RHP Robert Coello and SS Brian Bocock

[Flickered Flame]

WhiteSox acquire RHPs Myles Jaye and Daniel Webb from BlueJays in exchange for RHP Jason Frasor. From MLB's twitter feed.

[Caged Great]

Nice to have Frasor back in the fold. I'm somewhat surprised that it only took Jaye and Webb to get him. That's almost nothing.

[flames_1987]

Married to a Toronto girl and seemed to have loved his time here. Great pickup for what we gave up. Bullpen is coming together suddenly

[Caged Great]

This is the list of needs the Jays had coming into the offseason

Starting Pitcher or two
1B or DH
2B (Kelly Johnson)
Backup Catcher (Jeff Mathis)
LH Reliever or 2 (Darren Oliver and Aaron Laffey)
8th inning guy (Jason Frasor)
9th inning guy (Sergio Santos)

Considering the offseason is only half way through, getting 5 of the 7 things on the need list is pretty good.

[Gozer]

I like Frasor, especially with a pvr.

[Machiavelli]

Frasor's a great guy.

[Matty81]

Wow, surprised Frasor is back, and for so little... can't complain about that really.

I'm content with Lind at first but am still hoping for another good starter, of course while I'm wishing without losing any of the top 5 prospects.

Maybe one or even two guys out of McGowan, Alvarez, Drabek or Cecil really steps up but expecting 3 breakthoughs is really wishful thinking. I think the young pitchers are still at least a year away if they are doing things right.

[Caged Great]

Maybe, just spitballing here but I think there might be a possibility to fix the DH and SP in one shot.

The Cubs send Matt Garza and Alfonso Soriano here along with an amount of cash (Soriano has 54 million left over 3 years)

I'm sure the rebuilding Cubs would be willing to take less on Garza if they could move Soriano. If we were to say include Teahen, and they eat 8-10 million of Soriano's contract, that could be a way to address both issues on the roster in one shot.

Not sure exactly what it would take to do that mind you.

[Where ru Chris O'Sullivan]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

This is the list of needs the Jays had coming into the offseason

Starting Pitcher or two
1B or DH
2B (Kelly Johnson)
Backup Catcher (Jeff Mathis)
LH Reliever or 2 (Darren Oliver and Aaron Laffey)
8th inning guy (Jason Frasor)
9th inning guy (Sergio Santos)

Considering the offseason is only half way through, getting 5 of the 7 things on the need list is pretty good.

1B/DH were maybe a lot more of a "want" than need. If Lawrie does 75% of what he did for an entire year, Johnson repeats (even subpar numbers), Encarn does a bit more, this team will have more than enough offense.

Starting Pitching is where we are really going to be exposed, Romero is a good #2 in my opinion, Morrow a poor 3 or #4. This upcoming season is our best chance to get to the postseason...too bad there's no SP out there for us.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Where ru Chris O'Sullivan

1B/DH were maybe a lot more of a "want" than need. If Lawrie does 75% of what he did for an entire year, Johnson repeats (even subpar numbers), Encarn does a bit more, this team will have more than enough offense.

Starting Pitching is where we are really going to be exposed, Romero is a good #2 in my opinion, Morrow a poor 3 or #4. This upcoming season is our best chance to get to the postseason...too bad there's no SP out there for us.

Well, there are a few. Just depends if Rogers is willing to open the pocketbook to add 10-12 mil to the payroll. Edwin Jackson and Roy Oswalt should both command amounts in that area, give or take and there is always the trade market. Both Chicago teams have starters that are interesting (Garza Floyd etc)

Still have 3 months to get 1 maybe 2 starters before camp begins. I'm not really that worried about it.

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by Where ru Chris O'Sullivan

1B/DH were maybe a lot more of a "want" than need. If Lawrie does 75% of what he did for an entire year, Johnson repeats (even subpar numbers), Encarn does a bit more, this team will have more than enough offense.

Starting Pitching is where we are really going to be exposed, Romero is a good #2 in my opinion, Morrow a poor 3 or #4. This upcoming season is our best chance to get to the postseason...too bad there's no SP out there for us.

I don't really have that much faith in Encarnacion. I like him, but unless he improves quite a bit on his numbers from last year then he just isn't good enough to hold down a starting position on a playoff team. He is younger then I realized though, so it isn't impossible to see some further improvement from him.

I think I rate Morrow higher then you. When he is at his best he is pretty much unhittable. He just needs to become more consistent and avoid those innings or where he throws 35 pitches because he walks guys and takes them all to full counts. I think his flaws are fixable ones though and could be a solid #2 guy, or a great #3 this year and in the future.